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  #1  
Old 08/05/13, 10:19 AM
Michelle98's Avatar  
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Buckling care questions

Our first buck is 2 1/2 months old:

When do we have to separate him from his sister and our dairy goats?

Can he have free choice baking soda?

Is 2nd cutting alfalfa too rich? What then?

Anything else i should know?

Thank you!
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  #2  
Old 08/05/13, 11:16 AM
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No Baking Soda for Boys..
I read it gives them urinary calculi (like kidney stones)
the girls can have it, but not the boys...

From what I read, the bucks get ammonium chloride once a week or so... but this is just what I've read and have seen on posts....

I'm sure others with more experience can give you the WHY's etc...
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  #3  
Old 08/05/13, 12:40 PM
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Urinary calculi are formed by calcium or phosphorous. Baking soda is sodium. Not calcium. Not a problem.
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  #4  
Old 08/05/13, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO View Post
Urinary calculi are formed by calcium or phosphorous. Baking soda is sodium. Not calcium. Not a problem.
Good to KNOW
I was told not to give baking soda to the boys.... because of kidney stones...
THANKS for the clarification!!!

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  #5  
Old 08/05/13, 02:13 PM
aka avdpas77
 
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On one of the other goat sites it says that Ammonium chloride is used to help keep soluble the calcium/ phosphorus componets in the urine.

As a point of science, when I hear that one should give them ACV or ammonium chloride which are both acid in nature, to an advantage, it would seem that providing baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) which is a base, would be counterpoructive according to the general theory.

If ACV or ammonium chloride do, in fact, acidify the urine a bit to help keep more calcium in solution, it follows that sodium bicarbonate, a base would make the urine less acidic and cause calcium to precipitate.

Just sayin'
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  #6  
Old 08/05/13, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by o&itw View Post
On one of the other goat sites it says that Ammonium chloride is used to help keep soluble the calcium/ phosphorus componets in the urine.

As a point of science, when I hear that one should give them ACV or ammonium chloride which are both acid in nature, to an advantage, it would seem that providing baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) which is a base, would be counterpoructive according to the general theory.

If ACV or ammonium chloride do, in fact, acidify the urine a bit to help keep more calcium in solution, it follows that sodium bicarbonate, a base would make the urine less acidic and cause calcium to precipitate.

Just sayin'
Interesting Perspective & Deduction
Since I don't have any buckling goaties any more, it's all educational for me....I'll have to keep on readin~!~

BUT none of us addressed the OP's other three questions For #1, I thought they started to get sexually mature around 3 months...but i am NOT certain on this...my little buckling was 2 months old and he kept trying to mount his sister...he kept falling off of her but he knew there was something about that that was appealing to his sensibilities IF ....you know what I mean & I have no idea on the other two ...but would be interested to see what others post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michelle98 View Post
  1. "When do we have to separate him from his sister and our dairy goats"
  2. "Is 2nd cutting alfalfa too rich? What then?"
  3. "Anything else I should know? "
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  #7  
Old 08/05/13, 05:37 PM
Katie
 
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Yes make sure your bucks & wethers have access to Baking soda free choice just like your girls. It is to help their rumens from upset stomach caused from to much fresh green stuff, etc.

I do put a little ammonium Chloride in my bucks & wethers loose minerals.

Alfalfa hay for bucks & wethers is OK a little bit if your giving them a little grain but most of us give our bucks & wethers a good grass hay. Mine does have some alfalfa mixed in it & it works good here for us.

He probably really isn't ready to breed the girls yet but just to be on the safe side because it is Possible I separate my little bucks from the girls between 10 & 12 weeks.
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  #8  
Old 08/05/13, 05:45 PM
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I was reading and posting from my cell phone earlier. Hubby had to have an abscess removed from his back, so much of today was spent in doctor offices or traveling to doctor offices. It's all good now, and at least he has no broken bones. I didn't have a way to really research, cut, and paste. Also, I am not a chemistry major. My degree is in Humanities.

That said....I think we are talking apples and oranges. I believe the OP was asking if it was ok to give bucks sodium bicarbonate to prevent digestive issues. The answer there would be yes, IF your buck was having digestive issues. HOWEVER, the key to avoiding digestive issues is to feed less grain and more hay, AND the key to avoiding urinary calculi is to have the calcium/phosphorous balance of buck feed in the correct range. In general, do this by feeding bucks primarily grass hay and VERY LITTLE grain. Thus, both issues are avoided by diet alone. There are goat owners who do not feed baking soda at all.

Excerpt from http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/ar...calculi06.html

The key to avoiding Urinary Calculi is feeding the goat a proper diet. Producers experiencing Urinary Calculi in their goats must change their feeding regimens. Carefully read feed labels for proper calcium-to-phosphorus ratios (2-1/2:1). Some prepared goat feeds contain ammonium chloride in the formulation, but this is no guarantee that Urinary Calculi will be avoided. Most importantly, offer lots of free-choice forage/browse and good-quality grass hay and reduce the amount of grain concentrates being fed. Both the health of your goats and your financial bottom line will improve.

Really good concise info in PDF/slide show form:
http://www.ansc.purdue.edu/SP/MG/Doc...%20calculi.pdf

The Purdue source above actually recommends adding salt to the diet to increase water consumption and dilute the urine. Baking soda is sodium bicarbonate.

My personal take on this.... I've always had doubts about the human use of baking soda or the current fad of alkaline water to try adjust the body's pH or the pH of any body system past the stomach. You'd have to make a serious pH adjustment in a normally acid stomach for the blood pH to change, and then the pH of the urine. I just haven't seen research that would make me believe it. Not an expert on this either, but I googled and found this about the alkaline water scam:

Your stomach acid will neutralize the pH of the water so it really doesn’t do anything once it hits your stomach. If you were able to change your blood pH you would rapidly develop metabolic alkalosis.

Metabolic alkalosis develops when the body loses too much acid or gains too much base. For example, stomach acid is lost during periods of prolonged vomiting or when stomach acids are suctioned with a stomach tube (as is sometimes done in hospitals). In rare cases, metabolic alkalosis develops in a person who has ingested too much base from substances such as baking soda (bicarbonate of soda). In addition, metabolic alkalosis can develop when excessive loss of sodium or potassium affects the kidneys' ability to control the blood's acid-base balance.

http://www.apswater.com/article.asp?...Simple+Science
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  #9  
Old 08/05/13, 05:52 PM
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Ditto on separating the bucklings as soon as possible after 8 to 12 weeks.

Bucks don't need alfalfa hay. Grass hay is good.

There is so much else to know that it boggles the mind. We are all learning new things daily. Keep asking questions.
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  #10  
Old 08/05/13, 10:16 PM
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Actually.....On the alfalfa question...alfalfa is fine for bucks and wethers. Though too rich a diet is not good for any animal, so I rarely feed straight alfalfa unless I am cutting it with good quality grass hay. Alfalfa is expensive here! I like to feed an alfalfa/grass mix if possible.

UC is caused by a calcium/phosphorous imbalance.

Grass hay is high in phosphorous, low in calcium.

Grains are high in phosphorous, low in calcium.

Alfalfa is high in calcium, low in phosphorous.

The best diet for bucks combines foods that have both. The best diet is some alfalfa, some grass hay. Add grain or not(only my growing bucklings or bucks in rutt get grain. Mature non-working bucks don't get grain), that is just personal choice and need. I personally try very hard to always feed some alfalfa if I am feeding ANY grains to my bucks. During summer my bucks basically just browse and get no supplements besides loose minerals.

Most people who call me with panicky questions about their buck who has UC, are feeding grass hays and grain, or just grass hay to a dry-lotted buck. I haven't had anyone who called me with UC issues tell me they were feeding straight alfalfa and only one was feeding a few alfalfa pellets a day.
I have wintered bucks over on straight alfalfa and didn't have any issues. Bit like I said, balance is everything. I prefer to feed a mix if at all possible. My personal opinion is that straight alfalfa is a bit rich for anything.
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  #11  
Old 08/06/13, 04:05 PM
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I thank each of you so much for the thought you put into your responses! We will be moving him out of the girls' pen this weekend, giving grass/alfalfa mix hay and free choice mineral and baking soda. unless
I misread or misunderstood this sounds right. :-) Thank you!
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  #12  
Old 08/06/13, 07:41 PM
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Sounds great. If he goes into rutt and starts to loose weight, you can add a small ration of grain. That is personal choice, but in my opinion, bucks that are hard on themselves during rutt, or ones who have many does to service, really need that grain to help them maintain condition/warmth. Bucks who have just a few does to cover, or stay in good condition despite rutt, will be more likey to be just fine on just hay and minerals.
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