Reasons for and against euthanizing a doe

where I want to · #1 07/21/13, 10:10 AM

I have a much loved 8 year old Boer doe. She is not bred anymore- I am just very attached to her loveable nature.

For years I have been dealing with skin issues that turned out to be mange. I stopped breeding her when she developed mastitis that closed off half her udder although she successufully raised 3 kids with the remaining half. When I treated her for mastitis with antibiotics, she developed goat polio. So I think that infection was probably never clear up due to stopping the antibiotics.

I almost got the mange cleared up last year when it got too cold to bathe anymore, so I was going to restart treatment this year but since the treatment last year, she has started losing weight. I have had to keep her apart from the others for half the day to give her extra feed as she can not maintain weight otherwise.

I took her to the vet's on Friday. The vet could not find anything to account for this weight issue but did blood panel. I found out yesterday she has a high white cell count. I had a Johnes done for her in March that was negative. The vet raise the possibility of CL even though she has totally negative blood tests.

The vet thinks she most probably has an internal abscess. The treatment would be a minimum 45 day serries of daily pennicillin shots. I don't really think she has CL- just a gut feeling from dealing with it previously.

I can remember the last time I had to give her daily shots for a three week period. If I even came into view she started trembling and I had to chase her down each day to give them. She would not let me near her for over a year afterward.

So I obviously have a doe with a poor immune system (chronic mange and mastitis.) Do I give her these shots, making both of us miserable, having her possibly be afraid of me for the rest of her life only to have to deal with another series of shots and baths for mange and whatever infection gets her next? Or do I put her down and have a necropsy to see if they can find the abscess to culture to check for CL? I'm so fond of this animal, I don't know if dread of her showing me she's afraid of me each day, maybe forever, is making me think about putting her down, or whether the idea of making her so miserable only to run into the next infection issue, even if this one can be cleared up, makes putting her down the right thing for her even though her situtation is not yet totally debilitating.

What would you do to figure this out? What would you use to sort it all out?

Minelson · #2 07/21/13, 10:27 AM

Personally, after what I went through with Gretta, and when I see heroic measures being taken on pets at the vet clinic, I would not do anymore treatments.

Sometimes the treatment adds so much suffering for both the animal and the owner that to me it just turns into a train wreck.
I would just make her as comfortable and happy as possible (no drenches or needles) and let her tell you when it's "time". Do a necropsy after she passes. I kick myself every day that I didn't do one on Gretta. I do think Gretta had an abcess in her throat (not cl but who knows)
(((hugs))) I know how hard this is.

cnsranch · #3 07/21/13, 10:29 AM

ahh poor girl!! I feel so bad for you that's such a tough decision for anyone or any animal. When I have to make that decision I have to ask myself what is her quality of life,what will it be, how old is the animal, cost of what needs to be done.
wishing you the best and peace with whatever decision you make.

dozedotz · #4 07/21/13, 11:10 AM

About all we can do is tell you how sorry we are that you and your dear girl are having to go through this. Maybe having a sympathetic ear is enough.
We have always had lots of pets and now that we have the room in the country we have goats, too. Our children all grew up surrounded by pets and they now are doing the same for their children. Our son in CA has a magnificent dog that cost a fortune as a pup, is our son's running companion which keep the dog in excellent condition and unfortunately has the worst allergies in the whole world. The cost for meds, the cost in time, the cost in sorrow over itching and tearing foot pads is not even believable. Still, our son and his family find the time and the funds to keep their beloved pet as comfortable as possible with as high a quality of life as possible. Were they to decide tomorrow that it was time for Bailey to stop suffering, we would completely support THEIR decision.
Sometimes you just have to do what YOU have to do...nobody can make the decision for someone else. Love is never a bad thing, but it isn't always a picnic either.

Ford Zoo · #5 07/21/13, 01:07 PM

These are never easy decisions, especially when it comes to a favorite. How does she act? Is she bright eyed and active? If she does not look miserable, I would probably try a feed thru antibiotic (I know, that's not really a curative, but if she has an infection it may keep it under control, making her a more comfortable). High maintenance animals are time consuming, but many of us have had one animal that captured our hearts and made the effort worth while, as long as the animal is not suffering because of our own selfishness. Any thing is worth a try, at least once.

Is there something different to use for the mange that may be more effective to stop the risk of spreading it to your other goats?

Keep us posted on what you decide and how she does.

anita_fc · #6 07/21/13, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minelson

Personally, after what I went through with Gretta, and when I see heroic measures being taken on pets at the vet clinic, I would not do anymore treatments.

Sometimes the treatment adds so much suffering for both the animal and the owner that to me it just turns into a train wreck.
I would just make her as comfortable and happy as possible (no drenches or needles) and let her tell you when it's "time". Do a necropsy after she passes. I kick myself every day that I didn't do one on Gretta. I do think Gretta had an abcess in her throat (not cl but who knows)
(((hugs))) I know how hard this is.

Entirely with Minelson on this. I think most of us who have been through such a 'train wreck' have arrived at a "stand back and assess the ANIMAL'S quality of life" attitude. I don't want my friends' last days on earth to be miserable.

I do think it helps to know how other kindred spirits arrive at "The Decision".

fishhead · #7 07/21/13, 02:08 PM

I've never had to give shots for more than 5 days but normally when I give a shot they don't even flinch. I always give shots SQ. You can always give a treat after the shot too.

Minelson · #8 07/21/13, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishhead

I've never had to give shots for more than 5 days but normally when I give a shot they don't even flinch. I always give shots SQ. You can always give a treat after the shot too.

Some shots are really bad ... like Nuflor. It stings like hell. Pennicillin does not sting. But some animals are tender hearted and don't like shots PERIOD. My horses don't even flinch for any kind of shot, but my friends horse goes ballistic every time he gets an injection. I gave Frankie (goat) a shot of Ivermectin for mites and for a minute there I thought I killed him. He sat down like a dog and wouldn't get up. Treats are a great distraction and useful in many situations. But with Gretta, she was not interested in food and/or treats so it didn't work.

Clovers_Clan · #9 07/21/13, 02:35 PM

Another consideration is the health of your herd. Is she jeopardizing their wellbeing? The possibility of CL is definitely a concern. And goats with weak immune systems are susceptible to parasite bloom of all kinds, which in turn may increase the parasite load in the environment.

where I want to · #10 07/21/13, 03:16 PM

[QUOTE=Ford Zoo;6670848]These are never easy decisions, especially when it comes to a favorite. How does she act? Is she bright eyed and active? If she does not look miserable, I would probably try a feed thru antibiotic (I know, that's not really a curative, but if she has an infection it may keep it under control, making her a more comfortable). [QUOTE]

Timmie is obviously uncomfortable because of the mange scabby/itchies. She is still eating- just not enthusiatically enough to compete with the other girls during feeding. It is slowly getting worse but is not a decision required tomorrow.
I mentioned to vet that within a couple of days of shots, she will not be catchable without cornering her. I asked whether there's an antibiotic that I can give less often. He said that, not knowing exactly what her infection is, procane pen is the widest effective one. He volunteered that oral antibiotics might be much worse for her gut fauna (she had goat polio a couple of days into antibiotics once.)

I was thinking about something oral for one feeding and a probiotic for the next but I have no idea if that is a good or bad idea.

BTW the other girls have lived with her manginess for years- one once developed a touch then it spontaneously disappeared. I think most Tim has an awful weak immune system.

Ford Zoo · #11 07/21/13, 05:50 PM

Sorry WIWT, sounds like you have investigated and exhausted all types of treatments. I was just hopeful for you. Do what you think is best. I'm glad you are checking on alternative treatments in case someone has an idea for you.

I think Miss Timmie has been lucky to have you as her guardian. Can you post a picture for us? Those old gals always steal my heart!

AuntKitty · #12 07/21/13, 06:00 PM

What about the long term antibiotics they usefor cats now? One shot of that is good for a couple of weeks. I wonder if that could safely be used for goats? With their metabolism I'm sure it wouldn't last as long but at least a few days.ppl

Pony · #13 07/21/13, 07:36 PM

I understand your struggle, and I think you are heading in the right direction. What Minelson said is true.

Sometimes, the most heroic measure you can take for a beloved pet is to end her suffering.

{hugs}

BlueRose · #14 07/21/13, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pony

I understand your struggle, and I think you are heading in the right direction. What Minelson said is true.

Sometimes, the most heroic measure you can take for a beloved pet is to end her suffering.

{hugs}

^ ^ ^ ^
I agree.

where I want to · #15 07/24/13, 01:01 PM

The latest- Timmie had another CL blood test done, just to make sure. Then one of the vets in the practice told me about Draxxin, an antibiotic that is given once every seven days. It is off-label for goats (what isn't) but had a study done on it'e effectiveness on a herd of Boers which was good.
So if the vet thinks it will be a good thing for an infection that is unknown, I will try it.
Very expensive though.

yarrow · #16 07/24/13, 01:15 PM

what type of mange does she have??? Just thinking if you can get the itching controlled with the least amount of manhandling/unhappiness on her part... I had a doe years ago that as a kid developed Demodectic Mange... we treated her orally with Ivermectin (on a daily basis).. did it for several weeks.. She cleared up and never had any more issues (none of her kids ever had problems with it..which I was sort of afraid of)... she actually ENJOYED the treatments.. I would call her to come take her *bug juice* as we called it.. I'd pull it up in one syringe.. some snowcone syrup in another syringe.. she would suck out the bug juice, slurp down the sweetie and go on with her day.. (can't imagine trying to bath her and such)

hope you find an antibiotic that works.. that the CL test is neg.. and you get her mange cleared up... it's hard having a beloved gal suffering.. we all know what you both are going thru. big hugs

susie, mo ozarks

where I want to · #17 07/28/13, 12:11 AM

Tim had her first shot of Draxxin today. It's a small shot (1.7 ml) and she hardly noticed in her eagerness to get her supplemental grain/psyllium/pellet bucket. She gets another one in 7 days.
It did cost quite a bit but if she's going to be on an antibiotic for 2 months, this is the easiest way by far.
Blood test again in 3-4 weeks to see if it's being effective.

fishhead · #18 07/28/13, 07:18 AM

Good luck!

o&itw · #19 07/28/13, 07:32 AM

The fact that you are at the point of asking these questions, means that you will know what to do if and when the time comes to do it. Sometimes one arrives at knowing the necessary course of action, but is looking to be talked out of it.

If it comes to that time, you will need to let the "what ifs" go and not fault yourself for making whatever decision you choose. Most of us have been in this situation at one time or another with an animal. We do not envy your predicament.

Cygnet · #20 07/28/13, 09:34 AM

Goats can have sulfa orally, and it's a lot less of a battle than a shot, for what it's worth.

For the mange, have you tried a permethrin based fly spray? Mange in humans (aka scabies) is treated with permethrin. That, and ivermectin given orally, might clean it up as well as a bath would.