FAMACHA is "abuse?!?"

[harvestmoonfarm]

I was told by someone on an FB forum that I should be deworming on a schedule and that using FAMACHA to deworm is "abuse!" It's no wonder that people don't feel comfortable asking questions and/or believing the info they read and/or receive online. From everything I've read, deworming on a schedule only promotes parasite resistance to the various chemical dewormers (I research, research, research and don't rely on just one source for ANY information) and, since I've never seen anything to "debunk" it, I use FAMACHA to know when to deworm. Thoughts?

I told this person that, if that's indeed the case, there are a lot of people in the world "abusing" their goats!

[mygoat]

Can I join this FB group and flood them with research information? Sounds like they enjoy superworms.

[farmmaid]

I went to a day long workshop from Cornell last month and it was very good. LOTS I already knew, after 20+ years of goats, but you can always learn new things. We did hands on checking at Glynwood on the Hudson, fecal egg analysis, pasture management.....Many people to not know the "whole package" of Famacha. GOOD FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Worming all on a regular timetable=TROUBLE. Famacha is a wonderful tool for checking and then worm IF NEEDED.

[where I want to]

One thing that being on this forum has taught me is to be straight forward with what I don't agree with, ie I would say that idea of scheduled worming has been overturned by more recent research, and I don't manage my herd to make you feel good, just the goats.
I'm not the pussy-foot-around type I was before I started participating here. I found out I don't die if people disagree with me. And I don't like people who would say something like that without getting some facts first, so I don't care if they don't like me anyway.

Power to the Posters.........................

[harvestmoonfarm]

I'm not known to be the "silent type" when I believe in something strongly. I was shy when I was younger, but age and experience have taught me that gets you nowhere! Here's the conversation:

• Him: You JUST wormed and when did you worm previous to this? You could easily have anemia from worms this time of year esp if you only wormed once you only got a kill on adults- all the other stages were unaffected and even dormant arrested and ready to spring into action. In wet and warm conditions HC can lay thousands of eggs per day and develop into feeding size rapidly. Look up the life cycle of HC. There is more to parasite control than one dose of wormer. Once you let it get to anemia you have a long slow building back of health. Never wait for eyelids to be pale. Fecal or worm on a schedule!
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Me: I worm based on FAMACHA, and this is the third round this time. Worming on a schedule only promotes worm resistance.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Him: Like I said previously famacha is the worst thing to ever happen to small ruminants. It is complete negligence. The original program was designed for 3rd world countries that do not have access to wormers or they are so expensive they cannot worm on a schedule. Anemia that shows up in bleached tissues means parasites are drinking quarts of blood a day that your animal has to replace. Why let that happen? Worm alternately so you always have a doe unmedicated to use the milk from. Just worming without a fecal is pretty worthless too- what are you worming for? How do you know what you are fighting and so what chemical and what schedule to use? Famacha is trash. Worse than trash- it is abuse.
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Me: By those standards, I'm sure a lot of people have what you consider "abused" animals. The membranes are not WHITE, just paler than I would like. If I was abusing my goats, I would never have noticed them getting a bit pale. I have been in touch with my vets on numerous occasions (both are very well versed in goats) and am following their advice. This is why I hate asking questions on boards such as this one; someone is always going to judge and/or assume that, because you're not doing things the way they do, you're doing it wrong.
  
  
  
  
  
  
• Him: Trish I have seen so many goats on the doorstep of death because of herbal wormers and famancha. I have been dealing with this locally ever since it came out. So many lives could have been saved if people learned to fecal or took a fecal to the vet. I personally think too many people put too much stock in an easy to do thing like checking eyelids. It is unfair to the animal not to know the cycle of your personal parasites and know what to do about it. Famacha teaches nothing. Learn your local issues - watch weather cycles and learn to fecal. That is responsible livestock care. Of course this is just my opinion but what else would I be writing about LOL.
  

[Country Wench]

Wow ! How insulting !
Funny -- Langston University here in Oklahoma has a goat research facility http://www.luresext.edu/goats/index.htm and one of their big things is FAMACHA. They even offer a Parasite workshop and FAMACHA training a couple of times a year and include it in their annual goat field day.....
Hmmm....these guys are PhDs and specialize in goats -- what are his credentials ?

[nehimama]

Oh, Good Grief!!

[farmmaid]

I'll have to let Cornell University know that their PHD who did the day long workshop does not know a thing! By the way, the workshop included fecal testing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Alice In TX/MO]

I have started and erased a few responses, as it's hard to word answers to something that leaves me struck silent with amazement.

[harvestmoonfarm]

He's been grilling me about my herd management because I asked a simple question about why my adult goats' eyelids are pale, while all of the kids have flaming red membranes. I also mentioned that I dewormed all of the adults last night and bolused with copper. That's how this whole darn thing got started...

[Pony]

Bah.

Block him.

Life is too short to deal with jerks - especially fatuous, ignorant jerks.

[DamnearaFarm]

Ahahahaha! I can't stop laughing at this moron....goats losing QUARTS of blood daily that they must replenish?!?!?

[dosthouhavemilk]

I was reading the exchange and was pretty sure I knew who it was. I saw the exchange on the FB group just now.
She (yes, it is a she) is actually quite informed.
If you worm at anemia then you actually are worming at salvage. That is white eyelids.
She wants you to learn to fecal regularly and treat accordingly, not worm on a strict, so many days, schedule.
It is not coming across properly. The information is there, but it assumes a lot of history as well.
It happens to people that help others and repeat themselves over and over and over again. Some of the information does not come across each time.
She knows only what you have been posting recently...which is a lot of "I do not understand"s and "what do you think?"
In other words you come across as someone who is new to goats and does not have the informational background.
That is what she is used to trying to coach on those groups.

Some people lose their sugar coating with time. They get burnt out trying to constantly help others. I've seen it many times over the years on these boards.
She has been doing this a long time and so her words are not as carefully chosen as they may have once been. Though she has been a fairly shoot from the hip type person the entire time I have known her.
I'll trust quite a bit that comes from her. She takes the time to do the studies for her herd before touting it.

Another thing to note is that she is from Texas...from the South, where HC has wreaked absolute havoc the past few years. FAMANCHA is not as good an idea in the humid south as it is up here in the North where our parasites get to die in the winter and they do not overwhelm the goat in so quick a fasion because of that kill off each year(yay!).

[Alice In TX/MO]

Clarifying a misconception about FAMACHA. The theory is NOT NOT NOT to wait till eyelids are white. If you look at your card, there are small symbols that show the need to consider deworming just two steps down from healthy red eyelids. The problem is not the system, which also advocates fecal testing. The problem is people not fecal testing and not deworming until eyelids are excessively pale.

Summary of correct use:
1. Use FAMACHA and body condition to monitor goats. Check *at least* monthly.
2. Fecal test.
3. Deworm as necessary, not *all* the goats, but the ones with high fecal counts.
4. Cull goats with consistently high fecal counts in spite of your efforts to control parasites. They are demonstrating genetics of vulnerability to worms instead of natural resistance.

[MDKatie]

Like Alice said, FAMACHA is more than checking eyelids. Most places won't even give out the FAMACHA card unless you've been to one of the trainings. FAMACHA is supposed to be done using the card and holding it to the eyelid, not just guessing at the color.

[coso]

That is one good thing about being color blind. Don't even have a horse in this race.

[dosthouhavemilk]

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

Clarifying a misconception about FAMACHA. The theory is NOT NOT NOT to wait till eyelids are white. If you look at your card, there are small symbols that show the need to consider deworming just two steps down from healthy red eyelids. The problem is not the system, which also advocates fecal testing. The problem is people not fecal testing and not deworming until eyelids are excessively pale.

Summary of correct use:
1. Use FAMACHA and body condition to monitor goats. Check *at least* monthly.
2. Fecal test.
3. Deworm as necessary, not *all* the goats, but the ones with high fecal counts.
4. Cull goats with consistently high fecal counts in spite of your efforts to control parasites. They are demonstrating genetics of vulnerability to worms instead of natural resistance.

I actually do understand all of that.

My guess is, Lee (the person quoted by the OP) is dealing with folks who do not know that. That is what she has had to fight with since FAMANCHA (especially since the charts are easily accessible online without the accompanying course) became popular.

[harvestmoonfarm]

Roseanna - I understand what you're saying. I think it was just the "FAMACHA is abuse" thing that got me the most. I'm still learning (aren't we all?), but am not new to goats. I've always believed the only stupid question is the one not asked, and the only way we learn is by asking. Unfortunately, many people online take questions as a sign of "newness" or "weakness," and then things come across the wrong way. If anything, I'm getting to a point of not wanting to ask a single question, and I'm sure many others feel the same. It's a shame, really, because the Internet can be a wealth of information. I'm sure others, like myself, are tired of being made to feel stupid because we ask questions...

[dosthouhavemilk]

Originally Posted by harvestmoonfarm

Roseanna - I understand what you're saying. I think it was just the "FAMACHA is abuse" thing that got me the most. I'm still learning (aren't we all?), but am not new to goats. I've always believed the only stupid question is the one not asked, and the only way we learn is by asking. Unfortunately, many people online take questions as a sign of "newness" or "weakness," and then things come across the wrong way. If anything, I'm getting to a point of not wanting to ask a single question, and I'm sure many others feel the same. It's a shame, really, because the Internet can be a wealth of information. I'm sure others, like myself, are tired of being made to feel stupid because we ask questions...

I guess I have been on these boards for a very long time (maybe too long if they can get to me as easily as they have just by posting the past three days). With the type of person I am, I always look at all sides of a discussion. Look past what is being written and look at what is meant according to what I know of the people involved.
One should never stop questioning. You just need to go into it accepting that there will be folks who do not agree and realizing that it is not personal (except in cases where an animal is in danger of immediate death and the questioner is dragging their feet and making excuses--that tends to get some riled up ).
Especially on FB you are going to find that most of the posters are actually new to goats. They have not found these forums yet. Anyone can answer those questions and throw out scary misinformation that is life threatening to the animals involved. There are knowledgeable people that tirelessly try to correct those.
It definitely causes burnout.

One of the first things a person learns with livestock is deadstock. As people who deal with death regularly, it pays to toughen up quick and learn to let some things slide off you. Clearly that does not always happen.
We choose to lead lives that includes death as a part of it. That means we set ourselves up to be hurt, regularly. It can be difficult when that hurt is added to by people who do not even know us.

[DamnearaFarm]

But by the same token, knowledgeable people who are attempting to educate others should be more fact focused, not mired in hyperbole.