CAE in goats

o&itw · #1 06/12/13, 06:51 AM

I constantly read on here about CAE and making sure one gets CAE free goats or eliminates positive ones from ones herd. You all are apparently pretty serious about the subject. Then I keep reading along and find that the way of culling for many is to sell them

What?!!!!!!

Cyngbaeld · #2 06/12/13, 07:15 AM

That is a totally irresponsible way to cull for disease!

Backfourty,MI. · #3 06/12/13, 07:16 AM

Diseased animals should be put down, only responsible way to handle the situation.

Jenniferlynne13 · #4 06/12/13, 07:36 AM

Just curious....If a goat is infected with CAE ....can it be put in the freezer or is it like CL where the goat should be destroyed (ie Funeral Pyre) (read that in another post...& just want to make sure I understand the implications of these diseases and what should be done with the remains...)

Minelson · #5 06/12/13, 07:52 AM

My impression is that CAE is a little easier to handle than some of the other diseases. People use different management practices to keep the ones that are not showing symptoms yet. Then put them down when they start to show symptoms. I have only read one instance where someone was trying to sell a CAE animal on this forum. I'm guessing the majority of the folks here would not actively try to sell a diseased animal.

MDKatie · #6 06/12/13, 08:00 AM

Yes, they can be put in the freezer, and yes they can be sold (at auction). Most animals at auction go for meat, and many people sell their culls there to get money from them (because many raise animals as a business, not a hobby). MANY animals at auction have diseases or ailments, that's why it's not recommended to be a place where you buy animals.

o&itw · #7 06/12/13, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MDKatie

Yes, they can be put in the freezer, and yes they can be sold (at auction). Most animals at auction go for meat, and many people sell their culls there to get money from them (because many raise animals as a business, not a hobby). MANY animals at auction have diseases or ailments, that's why it's not recommended to be a place where you buy animals.

So they are dumped on the uniformed? Some other poor schmuck that doesn't have the resources either? I think most of the industries in the US that have dumped toxic products on the population because they have spent money developing them use the same reasoning.

Minelson · #8 06/12/13, 08:21 AM

I think that the auctions are set up to inform the uninformed of the animals that must go to slaughter only. But there are people out there that will not disclose and that's how they uniformed get stuck with a diseased animal.

Minelson · #9 06/12/13, 08:28 AM

I shouldn't even be commenting on this. I have no experience with CAE and I have never been to a goat auction. Just ignore me.

Alice In TX/MO · #10 06/12/13, 08:47 AM

Selling CAE Positive animals should be to a slaugher auction only.

PaulNKS · #11 06/12/13, 08:47 AM

Our goats are run as a business just like our cattle. ALL our culls, for whatever reason, go to auction. When operating as a business, you have to get every source of revenue possible.

With that said, I have not intentionally sold a diseased animal and I have no idea if any I sold have CAE or not.

Cyngbaeld · #12 06/12/13, 10:07 AM

I've never purchased anything at auction, simply because I do not know if that animal is diseased. Even if it was clean going in, what could it have picked up while there?

MDKatie · #13 06/12/13, 10:22 AM

Caveat emptor. Auctions are for selling, not buying. It's terrible that uninformed people buy pet animals at auction, but that's not the seller's fault, is it? Like PaulNKS said, the animals are still perfectly worth market (meat) prices, so why should they waste that animal? There's no telling what lurks at sale barns, so don't ever buy a breeding animal or pet there.

I'm not talking about breed auctions or private farm auctions, or the like. I'm talking about sale barns.

I'm sorry if I'm coming across as cold, that's really not how I mean it. I just don't see why animals should be wasted simply because of CAE.

Alice In TX/MO · #14 06/12/13, 10:50 AM

I understand what you are saying, but it is so easy to be a responsible seller.

No reason to take advantage of folks who aren't as far down the road of goat knowledge.

MDKatie · #15 06/12/13, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

I understand what you are saying, but it is so easy to be a responsible seller.

No reason to take advantage of folks who aren't as far down the road of goat knowledge.

So what wou you do if you had animals that were positive and you wanted to remove them from your herd? There aren't that many options. You can sell them to someone who knows they are positive and doesn't mind. You can euthanize them and waste that meat and income from selling them as meat animals. You can sell them at the sale barn and get meat prices for them. I don't see that as taking advantage.

Alice In TX/MO · #16 06/12/13, 11:20 AM

It's not taking advantage if you are selling to a meat only auction.

It is taking advantage if you sell to an auction with newbies in the audience who don't understand about goat diseases.

Shayanna · #17 06/12/13, 12:00 PM

I have a CAE positive doe in my herd. I really like her traits, and bloodlines, so I retained her doeling from this past spring and raised on CAE prevention--BUT there was the time right after she was born (missed it) that she MIGHT have nursed. I will test the doeling at 6 or 7 months old, and if she tests negative, will keep her as a replacement. If she tests positive, she will be butchered, and I will give Sage one more breeding season of a chance. If the next kidding season gives no doeling, or for some reason I miss the kidding again. The kid will immediately be butchered. CAE will be eradicated from my herd, but I would like to do it without giving up good bloodlines and having to start all over. If next kidding season doesn't go so well, Sage will still be dried up and butchered as soon as possible next spring. She is getting one more chance and that is it. I want to butcher her before the disease progresses. Yes I could just put her down and bury her, or burn her or whatever, but she is still a goat and that is a waste of perfectly good meat--I know that must sound cold.

This past spring, my negative doe's kids were fed combined milk from both does, heat treated for prevention. I did explain this to the people who bought them, told them what CAE was, what it can do, and provided them with websites and reading they could do on it.

Back to Sage, the positive doe, she really isn't an economical keeper. She doesn't produce as much as she used to, and doesn't keep condition well. However, her body type is perfect, and she has the perfect udder and her daughter is shaping up to be exactly like her. She is a great friend of a goat and is more like a dog than anything, BUT she is still livestock. If before next spring she starts displaying any symptoms, or appears to be deteriorating(sp?). I will have no problem butchering her that day.

I will continue to test every year.
Yes, my operation is a little risky, because I don't separate Sage from the other goats, but that is my perogative. Anybody who buys goats from me will be informed. Even the people who have a milk share from me are informed, and CAE isn't even zootonic.

Hollowdweller · #18 06/12/13, 12:12 PM

If you have CAE does then milk them last. Make sure you don't have any milk on your arms after milking that the negative ones can lick off.

Don't share syringes or other things between animals that might share body fluids.

If a doe kids wait till her bloody discharge has stopped before she is returned to the herd.

Make sure that you disbud your goats well. Breaking off scurs fighting and the bleeding that ensues is an opportunity for infection.

Another thing you can do, that protects your buyers, is to raise the kids you are bottle feeding on heat treated colostrum and pasteurized milk in an area seperate from your adult goats. That way there is no chance of horizontal transmission or a kid accidentally finding a teat.

Be sure to check the temp of your pasteurizer.

Make sure to feed the kids first before you milk.

Don't wash raw milk and pasterized milk things together.

**mygoat** · #19 06/12/13, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

It's not taking advantage if you are selling to a meat only auction.

It is taking advantage if you sell to an auction with newbies in the audience who don't understand about goat diseases.

I've long had an issue with the 2nd statement. If people buy from me, I jump through hoops to educate or help in any way I can. But IMO 'newbies' ought to do basic research on goats prior to getting them. I'm here to help but at the end of the day I do enough work managing my OWN farm/herd, and I don't need to manage theirs as well. Also, There are VERY few 'meat only' auctions for livestock, and even fewer for sheep/goats because some packers don't deal with them. I personally home butchered my CAE positive goats and it was one of the hardest things I've had to do in my lifetime.

Any newbie who takes two minutes to research WHERE they should get their stock, would find that an auction is not a recommended place. Any newbie who does 4 minutes of research on goats will likely run into some sort of disease information. It is an unfortunate side effect that is far too common - people doing little or NO research prior to buying animals OR just want them as cheaply as possible and do not care to even think about what could go wrong. I am in no way responsible for where my animals end up or their health after they leave that barn when I take them to auction. Even if I took healthy animals to auction - which I do - they could easily pick up johnes, CL, soremouth, contagious foot rot, mites/lice, worms, chlamydia/brucella or other STD's... and in rare cases, CAE.

I wouldn't hesitate to sell a CAE positive animal at an auction. Chances are they go for meat, but if a buyer is willing to risk the absolute worst possible place to purchase breeding stock/pets, then that is not anybody's fault, especially not the seller. The seller is doing what is in the best interest of THEIR herd, IMO, and it is a correct option. I do believe my goats are LIVESTOCK, and we're trying for a profitable venture. If I can make a bit back on a CAE doe by selling her at auction, all the better.

There are things MUCH MUCH MUCH worse than CAE. CAE is easily managed, even if you do NOT WANT TO ELIMINATE positives from your herd. Horizontal transmission is possible but very rare, there are many people who run positives in with their main herd and have never had any convert. (though admittedly, when people spread the rumor that cae 'hides', it's usually through this kind of transmission OR while at shows etc. It doesn't hide, it just CAN be transmitted horizontally in rare occasions...) All depends on your management practices.

As for CL, there's no laws against CL positive animals being eaten. I think if there are 2+ internal abscesses, the carcass is condemned... but if no internal abscesses, that animal is sold for meat still. This is through packers, I know many people choose to burn carcasses on their CL positives, nothing wrong with that.

o&itw · #20 06/12/13, 03:23 PM

Yep......what about when the guy next to you goes and buys some cheap goats at the auction to eat down the brush on his land. He is just using them for brush control so he doesn't care all that much about the particulars..... They might be carrying almost anything.

And now they are right across the boundary fence from your goats.... the might even be giving each other kisses through the wire.

Not your problem?

I am not talking laws here, I am talking integrity and ethics. If we don't regulate ourselves, I am sure Uncle Sam will use it as an excuse to do it for us... and I can almost bet none of us will like it.