How much space (for 3 goats and 2 calves)--small rant included.

[Shayanna]

Sorry in advance about the long post.

So my mother is being a bit of a brat. Last year we made the deal that if we fenced in her acreage, we could keep our animals with hers (She has a horse and a 600lb steer.) So we spent about WEEK putting up a 3 strand electric fence around 10-15 acres. We spent about 400 dollars on everything we needed. And all she had to do was keep the fence maintained over by her house. She did not. The a post would break in half and she should shove it into the ground. literally. Wire and all. So we had a difficult time keeping a good jolt. Or a line would come loose and she would leave it. And not tell us. Eventually this destroyed her whole side of the fence, and let deer into the pasture, which then destroyed our part of the fence and we couldn't keep fixing it unless she fixed her side. Then winter closed in and we realized we had to lock up our goats. So they are sadly barn bound until we get our fence up and running. (hopefully this weekend.)

With such a low jolt, the horse and steer would just walk through the one strand she had left standing, and she would find them standing on her front porch. So she needed to make a "temporary pen" for the winter months while she fed her horse and steer hay. And instead of taking the time and effort to dig up and pound in her metal posts, she used ALL of our fiberglass posts! And our wire.

With so many escapes last year, we are going back to a four strand. And she is dragging her feet on letting us know what her fencing plans are. Bottom line is, if she tries to keep her horse and steer over there in the summer, they will starve cause it is so woody. The pasture space is over by us. But if my mom keeps dragging her feet, we will have to put up our own temporary pen because the hay is running dangerously low.

So if she doesn't figure out something quick--because we are NOT paying to replace the fence that she didn't take care of, we need to do something.

My question is... How much space will we need to last 3 goats and 2 calves through the summer. (Sage, Demi, and Skywalker--as Padme will be kept separately and milk/browse fed until fall, when she should hopefully be big enough to be bred.)
Our holstein heifer is about 250lbs right now and our jersey steer is about 300-350lbs.

I don't know if it helps, but the area we plan on fencing in has a small creek running through it, with LOTs of cattails, there is alot of chicory and nettles and various grasses that our goats LOVE, with some pine branches that hang down for them to do acrobatics for.

[jcatblum]

Space for grazing varies by each location. You can check with your extension office to see what they recommend. However, that will still vary greatly. I can stock more on my land than my neighbor. The land has been overgrazed & will take many yrs to recover. Hope you can work something out with your mom. IMO deals with family or friends never end good.

[Shayanna]

I hope so too. I try to talk to her again and again. And I am more than civilized. And honestly it kind of breaks my heart. We moved up here because we wanted to be her neighbor, but she is so busy running around with her boyfriend and playing in pool tournaments, that she really doesn't care to see us or her granddaughter. Her animals are sadly neglected most days. She has the mindset "Oh, they'll be fine" "Its just a day or two". And her horse is probably the most unfriendly thing and hasn't always been like that. If I wasn't so scared of horses and had the money, I would buy it just to save her from being neglected.

Anyway... nothing about this land is overgrazed, and with the creek it is VERY well irrigated. So stuff grows pretty quick. We live in northern lower michigan. Last week we had snow and this week we have a big thaw and rain. With the past week of rain the grass is looking very promising. I remember reading somewhere that you can put 7 goats to an acre and 1 cow to an acre? But an acre seems so small...

[Alice In TX/MO]

Time to realize mom is a bad neighbor. Do not rely on her for ANYTHING, because it's just not happening.

Her steer is ready for the freezer. Offer to take it to the slaughter house and get it cut/wrapped.

Offer to sell the horse for her.

Get your posts back.

Fence YOUR place and don't concern yourselves with hers. If she says anything, use the wide eyed startled stare, "Oh, my. You weren't taking care of the animals or the fence, so apparently you have moved on to other interests."

[Shayanna]

Alice, thank you. This is what my husband has been telling me. Maybe it IS time that I grow a pair.

[thaiblue12]

If you have an area on your property you should have just fenced it in before you got the animals instead of keeping them in a barn or relying on your mom to do her end. You cannot keep them in a barn you are going to run into problems like hoof rot, worm overload and other issues keeping them in a small area.

You cannot keep the one doe separted from the herd. You need to get the buck into a good size pen with shelter and a wether friend. Running him with your does will cause him to re-breed them too early and you will have no breeding dates. He needs to be kept apart not your doe, but he needs a friend it can be another buck or a wether.

If you are having issues finding or buying hay start buying alfalfa pellets and maybe Chaffhaye.

Take back the fence and posts you bought, make your animals an area and let them out of the barn. In the long run that is not an option and is going to become unsanitary. Too many animals peeing and pooping in one place, you have a job, a baby and cannot keep up with two cows and 4 goats pee and poop on a daily basis.

You knew your mom was being a "brat" before you got the animals, so you should have waited till this got resolved before getting them, it is unfair to them and needs to be fixed soon. If she is being cruel to her animals then tell her to sell them so she doesn't have to deal with all their nonsense and she can be free to do as she pleases.

[Alice In TX/MO]

Wow. I was worried that I was being stern. But... there's a time for stern. You are responsible for the health and wellbeing of those critters in YOUR care.

Get busy.

[Minelson]

I agree with Thaiblue. The goats have been locked up in that barn for way too long. They need sunshine and fresh air even in the winter. The picture of the goat you posted peeking out the window broke my heart. I am not trying to be mean but you keep getting goats when you are not ready. Never rely on others for fencing. Fencing is just too important and too difficult to not take full responsibility for it. I can understand having to stall an animal for injury or sickness reasons...and even if you need time to fix fencing or install fencing. But that fencing project should be finished within a couple of days max to get them out. Mine are locked up right now due to a blizzard and I feel bad for them just being locked up for one day. I recommend you find somewhere to board them until you can get this problem fixed. Dump your mom....she doesn't care about her own animals she is not going to care about yours. I would also suggest you use woven wire fencing or cattle panels along with an electric strand so you are not relying on only electric. I know it's expensive but that is just the fact of owning goats. If you can't afford the fencing then you shouldn't have the goats if all you have to offer is a closed in barn

[Raymond James]

Ask neighbors how many goats/cows they stock per acre. With no local info I would want 5 acres per cow so total of 10 . Outer fences woven wire and electric hot wire. Hot wire used to divide into sections.

I do not think with your small numbers you need to figure anything separate for your goats. My pastures was cattle or horses for decades before I got here and added goats. They now have much less weeds and woody brush.

If you separate your male goat get him a friend. No animal does well by itself.

[noeskimo]

160 acres isn't enough here, not now, so yes, it is relative. and BTW; I like what Betty White says. She says we need to quit saying "get a pair" because those are quite sensitive. Instead we need to say "get a vagina" because "those things really take a pounding."

[coso]

Last year we made the deal that if we fenced in her acreage, we could keep our animals with hers

I have a question is this her land or yours ? If it is hers, that limits options !

[Clovers_Clan]

I would figure the stocking rate just for the two calves. Studies indicate stocking goats with cattle actually improves forage. You should not require additional space for them.

You might consider just fencing enough of your own land in woven wire. Even HT electric fence is inadequate for goats during the winter. My goats are well insulated and walk right through. And then if there are dogs/coyotes... Might be better to have just enough good permanent fencing. We have woven wire that has held up for over 15 years with minimum maintenance. The extra land you could make available during the summer with temporary electric. If it helps to avoid conflict, you could explain "since the electric fence wasn't holding up we decided on permanent fencing for our goats/calves. I'm sorry we don't have funds to fence enough room for your horse and cow, perhaps you could repair the fence to keep them in the rest of the area?"

Sorry you've been through such a hassle. Live and Learn. Just make sure you're not "learning" all over again! Its good YOU have the barn, keep it that way!

[Shayanna]

First of all, just because they are in the barn for the most part, and that is their shelter and where they are fed and watered, and is kept very warm and dry for them, and their barn is well ventilated. IT WAS WINTER UP UNTIL A WEEK AGO. And these goats when I got them had NO winter fur whatsoever and that was early february. The doeling is not kept by herself. She is kept with the meat boys. She is not ALONE. And Padme, along with Backstrap and Steak will be dry lotted/ and milk fed until fall when the boys go to butcher and padme is big enough to go in with the big goats. They go on walks every morning and every night where I let them browseon the pines in our yard unleashed and not fenced. My goats are healthy. I am keeping up on their feet and checking them daily.

So call me a bad owner--or call it "being real," if I didn't let my does graze on snow for the past 2 months. But maybe you should stop judging people so quickly. Everyone started somewhere and I'm pretty sure not everyone's setup is up to your standards. Each doe gets about 5 lbs of grain PER DAY, and alfalfa pellets. They get free choice hay all the time. If I have to buy more I will. But I would like to get them out on pasture since now it isn't snow covered and it is starting to grow. I just wanted know how much pasture space I will need to fence in for them, and maybe blow off a little steam, but maybe that is too much to ask for.

You know, for goat enablers, some of you are real quick to tell people "Nope, you are doing everything wrong, you shouldn't have goats." Get over yourself. If those are the kind of answers I'm gonna see everytime I post or see another post from a newbie, I'm done with this forum.

Yes you might be in another state, but I would WELCOME you, any day or time, to come visit our farm.

[Shayanna]

Originally Posted by coso

I have a question is this her land or yours ? If it is hers, that limits options !

Technically it is my great grandmothers. Same with our separate acre.We are both doing the take-over-costs-until-you-die type deal with her. But if either my mom or I die the land has to stay in the family, so as far as she goes, we can both use whatever, as long as we get along and agree. :/
So all in all, there is not your-land my-land type deal. Its a who is going to take care of it type deal.

[Clovers_Clan]

Hmmm, that makes it really complicated! Good luck! Cattle panels are expensive but that would be your most durable movable option. If you had just the goats and no calves, that would work for rotational grazing areas. That way you could leave it to your mom to take care of the horse fencing on her own. How much is it worth to have those 2 calves vs. the expense of permanent fencing and/or hard feelings?

[Shayanna]

Originally Posted by Clovers_Clan

Hmmm, that makes it really complicated! Good luck! Cattle panels are expensive but that would be your most durable movable option. If you had just the goats and no calves, that would work for rotational grazing areas. That way you could leave it to your mom to take care of the horse fencing on her own. How much is it worth to have those 2 calves vs. the expense of permanent fencing and/or hard feelings?

Well, we have a 1 3/4 acre area that we can fence in with no repercussions that she will not be using. That is the area we are fencing in this weekend so the animals can get outside freely. But I don't want to put up a fence just to have to put up another one when my mom gets around to it. So how long will this 1 3/4 acre area last? The goats will still be getting their grain as well. And is 5 lbs of grain too much per goat per day? (Just the milking does, and they each produce a gallon per day.)

I really do want to make things work with her, so I'm going to start pushing her harder to atleast get moving on the fencing. Maybe she'll be up for some coffee this weekend. If she doesn't do anything, I'll just fence in our whole yard and let the goats come up on my porch as they so choose. I posted her horse on craigslist for her and her steer will be butchered by October.

The calves are actually really worth it to us since we've put so little money into them thus far. And we have our steer already sold in the meat department when it comes time.

[Alice In TX/MO]

FIVE POUNDS OF GRAIN? My milkers don't get five pounds when they are in production.

You can save some money and the goats will be healthier if the main part of their diet is hay.

[Minelson]

Sorry if I sound judgmental to you. I'm just thinking about the goats. A shelter is shelter from bad weather and bugs. Raining, snowing, sleet, strong winds. Snow on the ground is not bad weather. Mine are outside, in the snow all winter long. They have the choice to go inside to eat, drink, get out of the wind or if it rains or snows. They choose to be out in the snow unless it is snowing or raining. They run around and play in it. They sleep in the sun on it.
If I were to purchase goats from the south in the middle of winter I would not transport them to this harsh of weather in the middle of winter if they were unable to go outside for the day. Sorry Shayanna, but I just have this image of them being shut in a dark shed all. day. long. And that bothers me. A walk in the am and pm is nice but not enough outside time in my opinion. You said it yourself in your post...''So they are sadly barn bound until we get our fence up and running.'' Yes....it is very sad

[Shayanna]

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

FIVE POUNDS OF GRAIN? My milkers don't get five pounds when they are in production.

You can save some money and the goats will be healthier if the main part of their diet is hay.

...Ooops? I thought I was supposed to let them eat however much they want during milking. Like they get as much as they can eat in the time it takes me to milk them. It looks to be about 5 lbs per day. At the rate I'm going through it anyway. And I worded it wrong. The alfalfa pellets are mixed in with a 2:1 sweet mix to a.p. ratio. I was told when I got them that Sage needs a little extra to keep her weight on while producing.

They do get freechoice hay all day and night long. Looks like I will be cutting those little conartist piggies back.

[Shayanna]

They weren't from "the south", they were just from a very small farm, and were kept in a very warm barn. These gals avoid ice and snow piles in the yard like the plague.