Question about cutting bucklings

[redgate]

In the past, I have used banding for castration. I don't like it. Sure it's simple, but it is so clear the little guys are just miserable for 24 hours or so afterwards. I have read some very interesting information comparing the different ways and time frames for castrating, and based on the results I have read, I am very interested in trying the cutting method. The final straw was when I watched the "Dirty Jobs" episode where Mike helped cut some lambs. Later I saw him in a TED talk about that experience, and he described how mortified he was. After seeing the rancher do it, he actually stopped the camera, and asked the rancher for the more "humane" method of banding. The rancher said OK, and banded the next one. Just like my experience has been, the little banded lamb walked over in the corner and laid down, clearly miserable. Mike wound up doing the show with cutting because the little lambs recovered so quickly.

Anyway, I am comfortable with a knife, but I want to make sure I do this right. Everyone I know around here bands, so I haven't been able to find anyone to help show me cutting. It's also the one thing I can't find on youtube. Is it like the lambs in the show, where you just snip the tip off, pop them out (though I will NOT be using my mouth like in the show!!!!), and just pull them out, or is it more like a bull (which I have done before), where you have to cut them off after pulling them out? If anyone does this, I would greatly appreciate a quick how to. We are planning to keep most of our bucklings this year and wether them to raise for meat, and I would love to find a better way than banding.

[CraterCove]

As I understand it, with the cutting method, you have to make sure you pinch and pull not cut. That's why he does it with his teeth. You have to crush the cords so that they don't bleed out.

Have you thought about using a burdizzo? It does not require cutting and the cords are crushed quickly and the testes just shrivel up. It's kind of like the best of both other procedures, cutting and banding. No cut to get infected but they recover quickly instead of like with banding.

It's my preferred method.

[Clovers_Clan]

I have been doing mine with a Burdizzo for a couple of years. Just like CraterCove described. They get up walk away and are acting fine within a matter of minutes. If you can find a Ritchey Nipper or the the sheep/goat version of the Burdizzo, those work best. The cattle version has gaps on the side which the chord can slip into, making it less effective and more difficult to work with.

They aren't cheap but they are much cheaper than a dead goat or repeated rounds of antibiotics.

Here are two excellent resources:
http://fiascofarm.com/goats/buck-wether-info.htm
http://www.esgpip.org/PDF/Technical%...20No.%2018.pdf

[MDKatie]

I've cut lambs, and between cutting or banding I prefer cutting but you have to do it early. The lambs really did bounce back SO quickly compared to banding. We humans tend to think because banding is bloodless it's more humane, but that doesn't really hold true.

You'll need a really good "holder" to hold the kid still. For lambs, we set them on a rail (or table at a good working height) on their bums, then held a front and back leg with each hand, so the animal is relaxing back against your chest. They'll need to hold their legs out to the side, and hold them well in case the kid struggles a bit. You don't want a dirty hoof coming down on the scrotum once you cut it.

Then you'll take a clean, fresh scalpel and cut off the bottom 1/3 or so of the scrotum. Make sure the testicles are up out of the way before you cut. You want to do one clean cut through, so make sure you're pressing firmly enough. Then the testicles will be exposed, but covered by a thin membrane. You'll have to tear open the membrane to grasp each testicle. It helps to sort of push down with your fingers around each testicle to make it "pop out". Grasp it firmly around the spermatic cord and pull somewhat slowly to tear the cord. Repeat for the other testicle.

You can spray the wound well with Blu-Kote or another antiseptic, then set the kid down, and voila, done! You'll want to make sure you wear gloves, and having a good bit of sterile gauze is good, so you can dry areas if needed.

[redgate]

The Burdizzo was my original preference. I can't recall the studies right off, but all that I read, surprisingly resulted in the cutting being the only one that had no internal residual bleeding, best weight gain (ie less stress), least change in other symptoms like temperature, pulse, and respiration (ie less stress), and were (usually) immediately ready to nurse, romp, and play with the other babies as though nothing had happened. That would be our ideal. I find myself worried sick about my little guys after banding, because they are just so miserable. I figure if I'm going to learn a new way, I'd really like to try the cutting method.

[redgate]

Katie, this is exactly the process I've seen with lambs. It seems easy enough, I just wasn't sure if it would be the same way with goat kids or not. We may just have to try it and see how it goes. Hopefully someone will respond is familiar with goats in particular.

[Backfourty,MI.]

I have always banded for years. last year I had a little buckling get infection down there, of course I already had a deposit on the little guy for a little girl for 4H & after I did what ever I though for 2 days & still yucky looking I took him to the vet. It was infected & the vet said cutting was the best way to go too.

I have a friend that always cuts her's & she is going to show me this year.

She cuts her, sprays the area with Screw worm spray & sends them back to momma. She said she has never had a problem before doing it this way.

[MDKatie]

Originally Posted by redgate

Hopefully someone will respond is familiar with goats in particular.

The anatomy is the same, so I don't see a reason why it would be different.

[dbarjacres]

We cut all of our to-be wethers and any calves we get that need to be castrated get cut too. (works well on barn cats too - except use a slit over each testicle, pop out and pull. warning, cat will scream, but be fine as soon as let go. In the long run it saves a barn cat's life as it's cheap (scalpel and disinfectant is maybe $1 per cat), keeps wandering and life threatening tom cat fights to a minimum as well as lowering disease issues. DH's discovery last month on our 3 7 month old boys we did is that they fit wonderfully in the disbudding box with their hips and rear sticking out the head part)

Our process is exactly as MDKatie described, cut 1/3 or less of the sac off, pull out a testicle and pull until it breaks, repeat for #2. You don't have to crush them as the shredding of the cord when pulled apart leads to very little blood, the only time we've had one bleed is when the vet did it to show us, he bled like crazy, we've done 20+ since then.

Don't just make a slit in the sac to pull out, actually cut off the bottom. DH for some stupid reason decided to just make a slit over each nut on our Longhorn bull calf we brought home in Oct and it just caused a bloody mess and did not go well at all. Had he done it exactly like he has every other time, it would have gone well. It was just too hard to work in that little slit he made.

[francismilker]

Grab ahold of the top of the sack as if you were getting a good handhold on a teat to strip it out of milk. Make sure you have two testicals pulled down out of their abdomen. You'd be surprised how high they can pull them up when they're scared. Use a sharp knife or scalpal to cut the bottom of the sack OFF. Pull down gently to get nuts out of sack and then once you have the nut in your hand pull on it until the cord breaks. I keep my original two fingers clamped down tightly on the top of the sack where when I pull the nut it stretches the cord into two and that helps bleeding. When I'm done, I splash a little iodine or alchohol on it, give them a tetanus shot, and turn them loose.

Make sure you do it on a cool day and don't just turn them out in a pasture so they can run around and get themselves worked up good or they can bleed bad. Just be as calm as you can and deliberate about it and it should go well.

[mygoat]

I don't have a ton of experience with cutting. I've seen probably 3 cut bucklings of different ages. And I've seen adult bucks who were put under for the procedure and castrated.

But, every single one of them were in pain. Some were days or a week after being cut. There was one with an extremely swollen exposed cord dangling out of the bottom of the sac after castration - it swelled and looked horrible and he was about 2-3 weeks post castration and still in pain.

Banding causing pain for 24hrs is not ideal, I agree. From my limited experience, cutting is worse AND causes an open wound.

I wish the Calicrate 'wee' bander was more cost effective. It's rediculously expensive and it just doesn't make sense to purchase it when it's already hard enough to profit on these critters. But instead of having a generic band size, you can tighten and cut off all the circulation and supposedly stop the pain of partial circulation cutoff.

The burdizzo has me worried. I've never had anybody around to ever teach me anything about goats and their care. Disbudding, placing bands, tattooing, management etc - I've had to figure it all out on my own by reading and doing. And because I don't have a ton of pens/housing, I couldn't wean bucklings (wethers) separate from doelings. I really don't want to wait a few months to find out if the burdizzo worked or not when his sisters or the adult doe herd starts kidding...

Anybody in MI do cut castration/Burdizzo on lambs or goat kids? I'd love to come by to help on castration day, learn how. I'd especially like to see cut kids/lamb behavior after.

[dbarjacres]

With kids, cats or calves (even the one that went badly this fall, which was all DH's fault on his "new idea"), none were stressed at all once an hour had passed. If a bit of cord, or meat (fat probably) would be present, we trime that off.

Someone wanted a kid banded last yr. We did, we then promptly caught that kid and cut it off and cut the sac instead. The bad was properly placed, but the kid reacted very badly to it.

[redgate]

dbarjacres,
If the kid should wind up bleeding, is there anything you do about it?

[dbarjacres]

When the vet had that one bleed that was really rare. We've never even had more than a drop of blood aside from that calf. We on the calf DH was able to clamp his cord and stop it. The kid we just waited and watched and told the vet if she killed him she was still buying him. She is totally jinxed when she works here like freak things happen and we don't use her anymore.

[MDKatie]

Out of dozens of lambs I've never seen one with tissue hanging out or bleeding more than a little bit. We never had to do anything further.

[redgate]

Thanks so much! I am doing it this year if we get any bucklings that don't qualify as breeders.