Kinda not goat related...WWYD?

bknthesdle · #1 02/26/13, 02:33 PM

On FB last night, a lady had a ewe who was showing no signs of labor, but had a small bubble of a bag protruding. She was eating and showing now signs of distress. She was advised to check the ewe and found that she wasn't dilated. Everyone guessed ring womb and suggested to manual dilate the ewe to get the lamb out. (who was still alive) The lady kept trying, but only got so far as to be able to get part of the nose and two feet out. She kepts saying the head was too big and the ewe wouldn't dilate.

Fast forward...hours later...and a vet call...who pulled the lamb and then stitched the ewe back up. Lamb is alive. (Not sure how the ewe is doing today.)

I have Laura Lawson's book, "Managing your ewe and her newborn lamb" and in it she suggested Cal-Dextro, Vit A and D, Vit E and B complex and to continue to manually dilate the ewe and if no progress, then suggests a c-section.

I know there are a LOT of knowledgable people on this forum and since goats and sheep were similiar, I thought to ask how the goat folks how would you have handle this?

I am hoping to learn...so that IF (God forbid) I am in this lady's situation, I won't panic.

Frosted Mini's · #2 02/26/13, 05:18 PM

CMPK and some oxytocin, and maybe Bo-Se could have helped in this kind of situation...and manually dilating her. Glad the vet came out to help, but did he tear her cervix? She may not ever conceive again, if that is the case.

yarrow · #3 02/26/13, 05:54 PM

I personally NEVER use Oxytocin.. (don't even own any)...I don't ever want a doe pushing against a closed/not ready cervix..BUT.. I do always give some injectable CMPK. (the extra calcium helps with contractions)... I will, if we are having dilation issues.. put some lute on to my gloved finger and work that into her cervix.. give her a little while if she isn't stressed (and pushing hard).. check again.. I have manually dilated quite a few cervix's over the years.. BUT>>> sometimes you got to just realize that there will be times that no matter how open you get that cervix.. what is in there isn't coming out...we have only ever had one c-section (a ff with a HUGE single buckling).. She was not progressing quite right.. no pushing.. no real signs of labor for the longest time (honestly my first inkling of something being off/wrong was that her *babies* didn't drop.. she didn't have that hollowed out look) .. so I was already on top of her when she did begin to push... out came HUGE feet.. I felt back and in.. realized instantly no way was that head coming thru that pelvis.. SO.. I pushed the feet BACK IN.. (spread them apart so she couldn't get him hung up in the birth canal)... called the vet.. got her in the car and headed out.. 13lbs worth of boy.. mom & son did great. he is a herd sire up by St. Joe... she is bred and due to kid on the 5th.. Last year Carla, a 7year old doe.. was induced.. I her pegged to start into real labor by 6pm.. 6 pm came and went, as did 7 and then 8... she was just sort of hanging out.. contractions, but not distressed, not really pushing.. I luted my fingers and rubber her cervix.. it opened some, but I ended up having to work my fingers in and around to get her fully dilated..out came two front legs.. HOWEVER.. one was a blonde leg, the other black & spotted.. I put them back in and began the task of untangling twin bucks.. big boys..laying on their sides, trying to come out facing each other in a hug!!!!.. Mom & boys did well.. Manually dilating can be dangerous and you have to be very careful.. sometimes there will be small tears/inflamation during a rough kidding (I give those does banamine to keep them from pushing after the kids are born.. the aching cervix will make them feel like there is still something there and they will push & push (sometimes to the point of prolapse.. I give banamine and drop them down on their knees with their rear in the air until they stop pushing)... I think the main thing is not to ever let thing go too long.. I want my does to push kids right out.. I also know that there is rarely any need for them to push HARD (as in really serious grunting pushing).. more then 3 or 4 times before I'm seeing the bulge of a water bag or feet.. If they push that many times without something happening.. I will reach in for a feel-see (clean hand/short finger nails, no point for gloves-except with the lute.. don't want that on your hands!!!)..9 times out of 10 there will be a foot there.. no need to go in deep..just feel a little deeper for the other leg, with fingers and sweep the other leg forward and gentle pressure .. the kid will slide right out.. (pressure is not straight out or down, it's a curving motion (from vulva towards the belly)... the best plan is to have a plan (have everything you might need, so you aren't having to leave the doe.. don't let things go too long.. swelling is NOT your or the kid's friend)... try to stay calm.. if one thing doesn't work, don't panic.. try it again..or try a slightly different angle...

susie, mo ozarks

bknthesdle · #4 02/26/13, 06:45 PM

Yep. Laura Lawson's book said no Oxytocin unless the cervix was open as you didn't want the ewe/doe to tear her uterus by pushing.

With lute, you mean lutalyse? What does the lute do for the cervix? And is there a gel that your using or do you mean just a couple of drops of liquid? We use it when we are sync'ing cattle to be bred.

yarrow · #5 02/26/13, 08:13 PM

yeppers...good old lutalyse..we use it goats to induce labor...or abortion, in unplanned breedings..rubbing it into the cervix will cause it to soften and open....I just draw up the liquid and drizzle it onto my gloved fingers....I also use lute to "re-open" the cervix the day after kidding if we have some retained placenta....of course it is also used to bring does into heat and to sync breedings for Ai ect.

susie, mo ozarks

bknthesdle · #6 02/26/13, 08:47 PM

Thank you. That's nice to know.

bknthesdle · #7 02/27/13, 09:05 AM

I found out today that the ewe had another lamb inside of her and the vet didn't detect it since he wasn't familiar with sheep. The lady lost both the ewe and both lambs.

yarrow · #8 02/27/13, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bknthesdle

I found out today that the ewe had another lamb inside of her and the vet didn't detect it since he wasn't familiar with sheep. The lady lost both the ewe and both lambs.

and that's why I *go in* on each and EVERY kidding.. after I think we are done.. I'll reach back in and feel around.. checking both horns.. (there will still be bubbles of fluid.. but they won't feel like a big with a kid.. those have hard body parts in them.. an empty doe feels like warm, squishy ropes.. nothing solid really).. I lost my herd queen 4 years ago when I had to go out of town and she went a couple days early.. I wasn't one who kidded her out.. they didn't feel around and missed a left behind kid.. we lost her..never again will a doe kid here without me checking to make sure she is actually done! (side note.. NO. I do not give antibiotics or flush the does out after I go in..we have never had a uterine infection.. I do wash my hands well before I go out to the kidding barn (and I'm mindful of what I touch.. always keeping at least my right hand clean)

so sorry about the loss of the ewe and lambs.. (don't care if the vet was *sheep knowlegeable* or not.. it doesn't take a degree to realize that there may have been more in there.. especially if normal labor was disturbed early on..it changes how everyone behind the stuck one..lines up)

susie, mo ozarks

bknthesdle · #9 02/27/13, 09:25 AM

Can I ask how do you know if your checking one horn verses the other?

yarrow · #10 02/27/13, 09:34 AM

it's really more of a guess... the main thing is to just gently make a full sweep of the uterus... First I feel and around the floor of the uterus (that's where you'll feel squishy ropes if there are no kids left.. next I go as far up and left as I can.. then I go as far up and right..my hand/arm inside her cervix will usually make them push again.. I want my hand in there to feel when they push.. just so I can feel if there is anyone hiding up and away that moves down a little during a push...the main thing is GENTLE!!! you don't want to rip/tear anything.. that's as bad as a retained kid, if not worse!!!)

susie, mo ozarks