Stuck between a lawyer and a hard place

[hobbit]

Hi All,
I am a goat newbie, and boy, I hope it get easier soon. My problem isn't the two lovely does we got though, it's humans.
I'll try to make the story short but clear. Rosie owned 3 registered goats (two does and a doeling). Due to an impending move she had to find another spot for the girls. She found a farm that would board them, and in the legal agreement it was clearly specified that the farm would get to keep the doeling and any kids that resulted from the 2012 breeding season. After which Rosie could take back the does, or leave them as permanent members of the farm, in which case the farm would give her 2 doelings of their choosing at a future date. During their stay at this farm the registration papers were all transferred to the farm, so that they could register any kids.
During 2012, while at the farm, the doeling died, one doe never got successfully bred, and the other doe birthed 3 stillborn kids and nearly died. Then the farm owner had a stroke.
At this point Rosie (this is where we get involved) removed the two does from the farm and gave them to us. The farm was given permission to breed them one more time, and if any kids were born at our place we agreed to give them to the farm. However, neither goat ended up being bred and thus no kids resulted. I continue to nurse the goats back to health as they were wormy and pretty mineral deficient when I got them.
Now the farm refuses to turn over the registration papers to me. She says I owe her 2 doelings first. She is willing to lend me a buck and turn over the papers when I turn over two doelings (or buy her two registered doeling). Now I don't mind breeding with her buck, or paying for it with two kids of her choosing, but I want the papers first. I want to have clear ownership, and ant my kids to be able to show these goats before we go any further. I mean, what if we don't get any does out of the breeding, or no kids, or something else goes wrong? I am sorry that the farmer feels "cheated" by not having any goats at the end of all this, but isn't that the risk of animal husbandry? The paperwork she signed, and email exchanges throughout seem pretty clear to me, but she is saying I have to "take her deal" or take her to court, and that she will countersue and get my goats (no pun intended) as she is their legal owner now.
Help!! I don't want to be bullied and I'm not comfortable waiting 5 months to, hopefully, resolve this, but I can't really afford a lawyer and really don't want to lose our now much-loved goatie girls.
Thoughts, Advice???
Julia
proud owner of Blue and Dreams, registered dwarf nigerians

[copperkid3]

If you have ALL the emails describing the original deal between the original owner

and the "farmer", and feel comfortable that you are in the right, then call their bluff

and sue them in small claims court. The major mistake that the original owner (and you)

are now realizing, is that the registration papers should have NEVER have been turned

over to them . . . and we wouldn't even be discussing this topic if she had held onto them.

With small claims suits, you can file and present them yourself without an attorney, which

keeps the cost down. Make sure that the former owner is ready, willing and able to be

your witness as her testimony (along with the emails) will be key to winning your case.

Word of warning however . . just because you win, is no guarantee that you will get the

registration papers back. Best to hope or legally manuever in the filing papers, that requires

her to bring them to court . . that way, the judge/magistrate can order them to turn the papers

over in court. Once court is adjourned (and if they've neglected to bring the papers with them)

then your pressure for them to comply, evaporates. All you'll have then, is a judgment . . .

which is worth as much as the paper it's written on.

[julieq]

Legal issues are over my head, but I'm sure sorry to hear that you are going through this. Hope you get it resolved in your favor, and very soon!

[coso]

If it were me I think I would punt and start over. Legal fees will eat up what the goats are worth, plus just the aggravation of it all. That is just my opinion though.

[copperkid3]

Originally Posted by coso

If it were me I think I would punt and start over. Legal fees will eat up what the goats are worth, plus just the aggravation of it all. That is just my opinion though.

* * * * * * * * * *
a small claim suit in Massachusetts would show that it should run between $40-50.

http://www.mass.gov/ocabr/consumer/s...ms-courts.html

Sometimes the principle is worth the costs.

[coso]

Totally disagree . . . and a simple google on costs to file

Not trying to agree or disagree. Just my opinion. Everyone has one.

[Backfourty,MI.]

I agree small claims court does not cost that much & no lawyer involved.
Call their bluff & tell them your taking them to small claims court for the does' papers & see what they say next.
Tell them after you have doelings you'll be happy to provide them with 2 & will put that in writing but if they don't turn over the paper work for the 2 does' you have that you will see them in court.

[simi-steading]

Seems like goats are enough of a headache as it is.. then you start tossing in lawyers and lawsuits over them?

I'd not worry about the papers and just have regular old goats...

[hobbit]

The only reason I care about registration papers is in respect to selling the kids. We don't have room or set up for a large herd, and we live in an area with a lot of dwarf nigerian breeders, and while I don't mind selling kids for meat if it comes to that, I would rather not create a situation where its my only option.
Follow up question-- if the goats can't be registered with the ADGA, but can be registered with the the American Nigerian Dwarf Assoc, or the American Nigerian Dwarf Dairy Goat Assoc. will that be enough to satisfy potential buyers? I don't care about getting top dollar, just having kids desirable enough to sell.

[Rockytopsis]

Are the two does healthy enough to breed? Sounds like they have had a rough time. I think I would use her buck one more time and hope for two does. Then is she does not live up to "her demands" use small claims court.

[GoatJunkie]

I've not ever dealt with a goat association, but perhaps the paperwork of your judegement (in the event the judge rules in your favor) might be enough to request a copy of each goat's registration papers, showing you as the legal owner....?

This is a hot mess. I don't envy you..... but I am keeping my fingers crossed for you!

[CarolT]

I think the original owner needs to ask them for the paperwork back, put it in her name, then transfer to you. If she isn't willing to do so, you may have to buy other goats to show and just have these as pets.

However, if they do force the return of the goats, they owe the original owner 2 doelings, which she might give to you....

[ani's ark]

Originally Posted by hobbit

... in the legal agreement it was clearly specified that the farm would get to keep the doeling and any kids that resulted from the 2012 breeding season. After which Rosie could take back the does, or leave them as permanent members of the farm, in which case the farm would give her 2 doelings of their choosing at a future date...

So I read that the arguement is between Rosie and this farm that leased the goats and failed to produce anything from them, possibly due to poor management. Its not really anything to do with you, except you want the papers for your goats. As 'their doeling' died and no kids resulted from that breeding season it sounds to me like the agreement has been fulfilled, whether they like the outcome or not. I suspect you would win this case in court, but Rosie would probably have to be involved too as she is the one who made the original agreement.
I'd advise either keeping them unregistered (you can register their kids) or buying new registered goats if you dont want the angst of court proceedings. End of the day, if you want THESE goats papers that badly you probably have to go to court...
Good luck with whatever you decide.

[Otter]

Ani's Ark, here, without the dam's papers, you can't register their kids, which is the problem.

I agree that it would likely win in court, and even if the farm owner didn't want to hand over the papers, I think you could certainly give a copy of the court order to the registry and get replacement papers directly from there, just as if the papers were lost or stolen, because that would be proof of ownership..

[KrisD]

I would try mediation before I went to court. I would write a very nice letter and explain that she has no beef with you as you had nothing to do with it. That to be nice I would offer her the pick of any 2 kids born out of the first breeding. State clearly that if what they want isn't born that is mother natures fault and not yours and there are no second picks. Papers are to be delivered at kidding and babies picked up X amount of days later.

The problem is there was no clause as to what happens if no doelings are born the first time around. All contracts should benefit both parties.

Did the first owner actually sign the papers to transfer them? If not have her call ADGA and have new ones issued.

[KrisD]

Wait wait wait her agreement with you is that she gets 2 kids not 2 doelings. Is this part of the agreement in writing? What was to happen if no kids resulted from the breedings?

[LoneStrChic23]

I'd quietly look into whether or not the papers were ever transfered out of Rosie's name. If not, she can call and have new ones issues to her, but I think if you were to do that you'd have to write up and sign a document stating that the other party gets the kid crop and hand it over to them....

Unless these does are VERY high quality stock, as in milk records and LA scores behind them, I wouldn't go to court over it. Honestly getting in the middle of their poorly thought out agreement is not something I'd do....

And to play devils advocate here, I see the other side of the coin. If the farm hands over the papers, they have no leverage to ensure they get the kids.....Heck, you could even sell the goats (not saying you would) & then they are completely stuck. Not to mention, then you'd also be using THEIR buck too? No offense, but I wouldn't hand over papers, plus buck service with nothing more than a promise of future kids. I'm not saying you'd be shady, but lots of folks are and I wouldn't take that deal.

The original parties need to sort out their foolishness themselves. Sorry you and the goats are in the middle it. I'd look for other registered stock and them to start up and sell kids from.

[haypoint]

Tell the farm owner that they died. Sell them at Auction and go buy some registered goats.

Tell the farm owner you'll give her $100 for the paperwork and that's it, otherwise they'll get nothing. I might threaten to shoot the goats.

These kinds of things never work out.
I had a pair of Large Black gilts. My Landrace boar couldn’t get either bred. We butchered him. I “gave” these two 240 pound gilts to a pig farmer with the condition that I get 2 feeder pigs from each litter. He couldn’t get them bred, butchered them and ate the pork. I got nothing, but that was the deal I made.
A horse breeder had a fantastic mare that had birthing problems and a leg scar that prevented her from being a show horse. This horse was offered to a friend of mine, for around slaughter value, but they wanted a live foal. But, since she was bred by a top stallion, the breeder wanted her back at his farm at foaling. The foal died in a birthing disaster. So they kept the mare a few weeks, got her back in foal and told my friend to come get her and we’d try all over again. He had already cared for the mare for 8 months, now he was expected to care for her another 10 months, return her and try again. The breeder kept the papers, so the foal would be sired by his sire and dam. So the guy had to either give up his money or accept this poorly thought out handshake deal.

[Tallabred]

Hmm . . .so your first advice is to lie . . . second advice is to threaten to shoot them . . . It does not surprise me that things never work out for you. Do you even own a goat?

The horse "story" makes no sense.

[chma4]

Breed them, hand over the offspring, and get your papers. I would never have bought goats in legal limbo like this. If you got them for free, consider it the purchase price. Worst case, they never get bred, in which case, who needs the papers anyway? JMO
That is what I would do.