Possible Ketosis?

creekmom · #1 02/25/13, 12:22 PM

I have a Nigerian that 145 days pregnant next Monday. This morning she kinda picked at her grain/alfalfa mix and ate only about half and then ate very little grass hay. Her temp was 102.7. She is pooping and peeing normally. Eyelids pink. Not herself at all.

I gave her a dose of Nutridrench, Fortified B-complex, Probios, and 15 cc of 2 parts karo syrup/1 part molasses (as directed on Fiasco Farm).

I would rather be proactive and head it off if that is what it is. Does this sound like ketosis to you guys? I have no experience with it at all.

Here is what I have been feeding her: Free choice good quality grass hay, 1 cup alfalfa pellets/1/4 cup whole oats (this is fed 2x a day), and a weekly dose of Replamin Plus (started that a month ago).

I thought I was feeding like I am supposed to in order to prevent this from happening. Does anything seem off in the type and amount of alfalfa/grain that I am feeding? I have 4 does besides her due in the next 3 weeks.

Thanks for any thoughts.

Elizabeth

copperpennykids · #2 02/25/13, 12:39 PM

Pregnancy toxemia (ketosis) can happen to any doe, even with excellent management.

Does carrying high multiple kids are generally more at risk than those carrying a single or twins - and Nigerians like to have litters!

Your treatment is good, but you need to add a readily available source of calcium (majority of this problem is due to a calcium/phosphorus imbalance) to your drench. MFO (oral) or CMPK (oral) should be added to your drench. About 2 ounces (equals 60ccs) 2X/day. You can also get CMPK injectable from your vet.

Oops - drop the calcium to 30ccs - this is a Nigerian! (sorry, my brain just spits out standard goat dosages

).

Also - give her a big pinch of baking soda, directly into her mouth. You can also make a baking soda drench and get it into her that way - about 1 tsp of baking soda in 1/4 cup of water and just drench her. This is in case she has acidosis. The baking soda will correct the Ph and she should start eating again. Acidosis will cause her to stop eating (especially grain) and then she starts to run out of energy - basically can be what causes her to start the ketosis.

Hard to know what caused the situation, all you can do is play defense.

Oh - and it will seem counter-intuitive, but withhold grain. If she has acidosis this a must, and if it is an imbalance, this will help the calcium catch up. Just for 2 or 3 days - you are providing extra energy via the karo/molasses. Try to find browse to offer - pine branches are excellent for this. Raspberry canes etc as well.

creekmom · #3 02/25/13, 12:53 PM

Thanks a lot. I have the CMPK stuff from TSC and I will dose her with that. Boy she is really going to love to see me coming after all this.

If this is brought on by an improper calcium/phosphorus ratio do you see anything in my management that I should be doing differently?

Hollowdweller · #4 02/25/13, 01:28 PM

Personally a goat being off feed for 1 feeding is not enough to get me to rush out and buy a bunch of stuff and cram it down her.

I notice you are not feeding any corn just oats? Oats aren't very digestible so if she did have ketosis it might make it worse.

Sometimes you can head off slight ketosis, or I can just by upping the corn a little.

But if your goat is 5 days from kidding she could even be getting ready to kid and that would be why she's off feed.

I'd watch her if over the next 2 feedings she's only picking then I might give her a shot of glycol.

When she kids be sure to give her a big bucket of warm water with molasses mixed in and I might feed a mix of corn and oats.

Hollowdweller · #5 02/25/13, 01:37 PM

PS:

Remember goats carry their fat in their abdominal cavity, they aren't marbled like beef.

So if a goat gets fat and then has triplets she winds up where she can't really eat as much as she would need to maintain her energy balance because of a combination of fat and kids restricting how much more food at any one time can be in her guts due to the crowding.

So in a goat prone to ketosis I would feed a slightly higher more concentrated protein closer to kidding to compensate, and watch her closely. Especially for the smell and foot swelling.

**mygoat** · #6 02/25/13, 01:43 PM

Smell her breath. If it smells like ketones, it is ketosis. Think of a chemically, nailpolish remover smell.

I wouldn't stuff a bunch of stuff down them either after one failed feeding, though I would observe her closely!

I would not cut the grain unless I knew it was acidosis. Why? Ketosis is an ENERGY deficiency. About the only way to get near to supplying adequate energy to a late term doe carrying multiples IS grain. There is just not enough room available to take in enough hay for adequate nutrition.

copperpennykids · #7 02/25/13, 02:02 PM

I beg to differ - she is already feeding as you suggest and she has a potential problem on her hands. Whenever a doe is in late pregnancy and the breeder senses that something is "off" that is not the time to do the "wait and see".

If she drenches her with this mixture twice a day it is not going to hurt her. If she doesn't and she does have ketosis on her hands, she may have a goat crashing on her. If she is fat (something Nigie breeders have to really guard against), then the drench is going to get her through - the grain will not. If it is acidosis, the grain has to be the first thing to go.

This is such a mild intervention (drenching is not cramming stuff down a goats throat!). It is just support.

Which ever way you choose to go, make sure that you give this doe the baking soda.

And don't mind me - we just kid out around 100 kids each year, including heavy Boer multiples. - being proactive has always been a benefit to us.

Hollowdweller · #8 02/25/13, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by copperpennykids

If she drenches her with this mixture twice a day it is not going to hurt her..

True.

I have a tendency to have more of a wait and see attitude than most because I have had so much exposure to people over medicating their goats for nothing.

Also I try to breed for hardiness so if I immediately treat every subtle behavior change then you never are able to determine which of your goats are the most constitutionally strong.

You'd be suprised if you weed out the weak ones and don't over medicate the strong ones how low your vet bill can be!

creekmom · #9 02/25/13, 02:59 PM

Okay I couldn't smell the nail polish remover earlier but I smell it now. She won't eat any hay but she did eat some oak leaves that I brought to her. Should I take her to the vet? I do not want to lose her.

April · #10 02/25/13, 03:39 PM

Baking soda will sure help her tummy and get her back to eating. I see that you gave her the CMPK, but the baking soda is important too if you haven't done that already.

Alice In TX/MO · #11 02/25/13, 03:40 PM

I would NEVER ever increase corn to a sick goat.

Taste your calcium drench of choice to be sure it's not one of the ones that burns their throats.

copperpennykids · #12 02/25/13, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creekmom

Okay I couldn't smell the nail polish remover earlier but I smell it now. She won't eat any hay but she did eat some oak leaves that I brought to her. Should I take her to the vet? I do not want to lose her.

You can treat her at home.

Drench her with the molasses and karo syrup and CMPK. Mix in a little water and electrolyte solution (gatorade or the powdered stuff you get from the feed store). If you can smell ketones, then she will need to be drenched every 4 hours with the solution. Keep tempting her with browse and varieties of hay.

BTW, we have never been able to smell the ketones - but we have caught our Boer doe that was heading that direction - early - and took proactive measures. She was a hearty old gal - she kidded with quintuplets (42 lbs of kids) that time around. In her lifetime (7.5 years) she produced 26 kids. Only one was stillborn. If a goat is going to work that hard, I don't mind a little extra work - and it was relatively inexpensive to do.

If I had to take her to the vet, yep, expensive.

If she really starts to go down hill, you may have to induce. 5 days early the kids should be okay, but see if your vet will give you lutelyse (to induce) and Dexmethasone (to help mature the kids' lungs).

Jyllie63 · #13 02/25/13, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creekmom

Okay I couldn't smell the nail polish remover earlier but I smell it now. She won't eat any hay but she did eat some oak leaves that I brought to her. Should I take her to the vet? I do not want to lose her.

I suppose you could take her to the vet if you feel confident in your vets ability to treat goats. I am more confident in the advice I get here. Copperpenny has given great advice

creekmom · #14 02/25/13, 07:26 PM

Okay, here is an update. I have been running all afternoon back and forth to the barn and trying to find anything she will eat. I have drenched her with the CMPK twice now. I have been doing 15 ml each time of the CMPK and then mixing it with karo syrup and a little water. I can definitely smell the ketones. Is that enough of the CMPK. She is about 60 pounds normally.

I finally found some oak leaves that she ate, about a handful, leaves and the twigs. She has done that twice. Now this evening I gave her a handful of Dumor Goat Pellets which she ate heartily. And she has been munching on her coastal/titfton grass hay. I hope giving her the Dumor pellets was okay. She wasn't interested in the alfalfa pellets.

Okay, so I should give her the CMPK mixture every four hours even through the night? I sure don't mind if that is what I need to do.

I feel so disheartened right now. I thought I was doing the right thing so this wouldn't happen. Oh and her temp was 102.2.

Thanks Copperpenny for the help and thank everyone else for your support. Yall are great.

Elizabeth

Jyllie63 · #15 02/25/13, 09:06 PM

You have done everything right

. These things just happen sometimes. Sounds like she is doing better and I'm sure she will be back to her old self very soon! I would definitely keep up the CMPK since you can still smell the ketones.

Keep us updated!

Minelson · #16 02/26/13, 06:51 AM

How is your girl doing this morning?

creekmom · #17 02/26/13, 07:22 AM

I have been checking on her all night and she is alert and she was chewing her cud; something she didn't do at all yesterday. Her breath is still smelling sweet though. She is acting more like herself, alert and she's not wanting to go off and be by herself like yesterday. I'm fixing to go back out and feed everyone and hopefully she will still have an interest in eating like she was last night.

Thanks for all the help.

Hollowdweller · #18 02/26/13, 08:33 AM

As long as she doesn't get down as close to kidding as she is she will probably be ok.

creekmom · #19 02/26/13, 12:19 PM

Just checked on her and I don't smell any ketones at all. It was so strong last night. Is it possible to overcome the condition that fast? She seems to be feeling and acting fine. I will be watching her very carefully. You know she could have had that breath prior to her refusing her food, I just didn't know what it smelled like. Now I do and it is something I will be able to recognize right off.

Hopefully this "learning experience" is going to turn out all right.