ANOTHER Calcium Carbonate question

[GoldenWood Farm]

Okay y'all! I swear I am getting close to an end with all my questions . I am starting giving my girls grain in the next day or two and I will be adding their calcium carbonate to their mix. Do I just start out at a spoonful a day or do I work up to it right before they kid? Do any of you have specific measurements based on milk production or do you just have a set amount everybody gets?

I am trying to get a bead on things and make sure I don't have any bad kidding because I messed up. I am like a nervous ninny over here trying to make sure I have everything figured out .

Justine

[KrisD]

Well I feed my girls in one big feeder that they all share. I just take a scoop out (1/2 pint mason jar) toss it on their food with a smidge of vegetable oil to make it stick somewhat. Nobody is refusing to eat it. I love that it is only $4/50# bag! Finally something cheap when it comes to goats. I also toss in a Vit D soft gell because as you know the the Pacific Northwest doesn't get any sun for months at a time.

[mygoat]

To reduce chances of hypocalcemia, I don't feed calcium until onset of lactation. Feeding excess calcium pre-kidding reduces calcium homeostasis, and leads to hypocalcemia.

When I start feeding it, I feed abt 1tbs Ca carbonate per doe per feeding. Dairies get it 2x per day in their grain.

[Alice In TX/MO]

Justine - how many goats?

[GoldenWood Farm]

Donna - Have you never had issues with hypocalcemia by doing it your way? I have always been taught and though you need to give calcium before kidding at least a month before as the kids grow the most in those last months.

Alice - I will be feeding 7 milking does, but they get grain on the milk stand not together so each doe will be getting her separate amount.

Justine

[mygoat]

Originally Posted by GoldenWood Farm

Donna - Have you never had issues with hypocalcemia by doing it your way? I have always been taught and though you need to give calcium before kidding at least a month before as the kids grow the most in those last months.

Alice - I will be feeding 7 milking does, but they get grain on the milk stand not together so each doe will be getting her separate amount.

Justine

I haven't been off of alfalfa long enough and using Ca carbonate to have any issues. I've never had a case of ketosis or hypocalcemia - ever.

However, my info comes from dairy science research. According to Mercks (news to me), the low Ca diet helps but not as much as hoped. Problem seems to be with the fact that reducing Ca in the diet low enough is impossible without using DCAD diet. With dairy cattle, they are really pushing the idea of DCAD diets, but this is impossible for most dairy goat people who do not have access to a nutritionist who knows goat nutrition (yeah right, lol). So, the best I still have is feeding as low of a calcium diet pre-kidding, so I'll continue with it.

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in...m/bc/80302.htm

In sheep/goats:

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in...m/bc/80303.htm

from above link:

Dietary modifications useful for the prevention of milk fever in dairy cattle may be of value in dairy sheep and goats. Therefore, reducing or eliminating diets rich in cations (alfalfa), clovers, or supplemental calcium and phosphorus in the late dry period may aid in prevention. Immediately after parturition the calcium levels in the diet should be increased. Movement, periods of inadequate dietary intake, heavy parasite burdens, or other forms of stress should be minimized in sheep during the final 8 wk of gestation.

[GoldenWood Farm]

Hmm okay so for you do you start adding it when they kid out? Or is it something you start a week before they kid? I am guessing you start when they kid out. I haven't had issues before with does getting milk fever from adding calcium in their diet a month before. But I am wondering is maybe I should start out low and build up so they are up to full amount right before they kid?

The only year I had major cases of milk fever was when I switched how they where getting their calcium and I do not EVER want to go through that again. Right now everyone is getting 2nd cutting Orchard grass hay and tomorrow those who are a month out will be getting a mixture of oats, barley and sunflower seeds topped with kelp and flax seed.

Justine

[mygoat]

I begin feeding the additional, top dressed Calcium Carbonate when they kid. Harder to do with the boer goats, which *hopefully* are all kidding out at the same time, but that's not the case always. On some goats, it's more theoretical than possible, hehe.

As I said, it's not surefire, and the *ideal* would be DCAD diets. The best I can do is avoid high Ca intake pre-kidding, so that's what I do. What you DON'T want to do is stuff tons of calcium down them during the dry period, IMO.

Thankfully, hypocalcemia is NOT common, as a general rule. But it does happen, sometimes no matter the management.

[Alice In TX/MO]

How about... NOT changing their diets around? OK, radical....That's ME!

I feed a medium/low protein, medium calcium, hay, and browse diet all year round. The micro managing of their calcium levels would make me nuts.

[mygoat]

I wouldn't call what I do micromanaging. It's very easy, and I'm all for easy and doing as few things 'to' the goats to keep them healthy.

[yarrow]

we feed exactly the same...year round..fresh, dry..pregnant, open, winter, spring, summer...milking does get extts by getting a second serving of breakfast on the stand...after already eating their share of the communal bowls..in the winter if it is really cold..more feed is dumped out for everyone...with everyone due to kid soon..we upped the amoint of feed put out for them all.....but we feed the same geed 365days a year...top dressing every meal (2x a day) with calcium and minerals year round.

susie,mo ozarks

[GoldenWood Farm]

Hmm okay lots of info to think about. See the problem is I can't afford to feed the same year round, my hay alone is $18 a bale and if I tried to add grain to that year round I would go broke (just plain couldn't afford it). I am fine during part of the year but I couldn't do it year round.

Now I am not sure which direction to go. Donna I have to ask you this, I have always thought it was important to get calcium before kidding because they need it for growing babies as well as supporting their milk coming in. Is that not true?

It looks like the biggest thing I am seeing is people not drastically changing their diet before kidding. I am wondering/thinking if I could slowly up their calcium carbonate so they are at the right amount when they kid. Donna, Susie and anybody else what do you think of that? I just don't feel comfortable with them not getting ANY calcium at all until they kid.

Justine

[yarrow]

I would not be comfortable changing much in a feeding program while does are heavy bred.. too much can go wrong too quick.. I too am NOT comfortable NOT giving Calcium until after they kid.. (I know I too have read all the writings about why cows shouldn't have it... but it just never made good sense to me...) so... I DO feed it before and then INCREASE it as we get closer to do date...

Kidding has began here (2nd season of just the oats, Boss, hay ..top dressed).. so far, so good..

I think you are going to just have to decide what you are comfortable with ..get a plan and stick with it... change is SO hard on them, once you get something that works for you.. stick with it..

susie, mo ozarks

[southerngurl]

And you're making the assumption that this applies to goats like it does cows, and while they are similar animals, they can have some major differences in how they function.

Sometimes science can get way too hung up on one piece of an extremely complicated puzzle and reach a totally backwards conclusion. So when it goes against common sense, I'm going to have a very high level of skepticism. Just my opinion.

[mygoat]

What's popular in most places is to get as much calcium as possible down them all year round... All I can say, is that I'm utelizing what I'm learning in my animal science classes. There's about a million things I wish I could change with my setup and management, but due to facilties etc it's impossible/difficult.

Anywho, I do what I do because I think it's the best for my group, as everyone does. Nothing wrong with that at all!

The theory of DCAD diets is that the LAST 2 WEEKS put the animal in a NEGATIVE calcium balance. This is after the high demand for calf bone growth stage, which yes, is important. This negative Ca balance enhances the draw from bones with the RAPID onset of lactogenesis. A cow/goat HAS to draw from the bones to prevent hypocalcemia. Most of the time it works fine - but when calcium homeostasis cannot be maintained, that's when you get hypocalcemia. I do not feed DCAD diets, so I encourage draw from bones by not supplementing EXTRA calcium until after they freshen. They still get some alfalfa mixed in their hay (mostly grass though), and they are getting grain and minerals etc.

The levels of Ca in most feeds and hays is adequate for maintenance and kid growth. They may have to pull some from their bones during the high demand point in pregnancy for kid bone growth, that's normal. I expect them to pull from their bones to freshen. Then I supplement that day with Ca. Because I do not separate does for long if at all after kidding, essentially once the first goat kids in the main group, they all start getting calcium. In an ideal situation, I'd be able to separate off the newly fresh girls with their kids.

[Alice In TX/MO]

Here's a paper that probably explains the DCAD diet. I guess it does. I stopped reading when I got palpitations. I know there are folks who enjoy deciphering that type of writing. More power to you!

http://www.extension.org/pages/11313...-dairy-rations

[mygoat]

I'm well aware goats are different... But I don't think that's reason to disregard how other species are managed and the science behind it. I think a lot of things would be beneficial. The simple fact that other industries are profitable and making leaps and bounds in genetic progress impresses me... But I digress.

I will say that the MAIN reason I started doing it "my way" is that my situation is different from most. I was faced with not being able to find any affordable, decent quality alfalfa this year, and my process has to be easy or my dad will screw it up. I'm home 2 days out of the week, the rest of the time my father takes care of the farm. I plan kidding around my school schedule and I do all the other necessary complicated management on the weekends.

All in all, the way I do calcium makes sense to me, is exceedingly easy for us to do when we don't have access to good alfalfa hay (and my dairy goats WILL NOT TOUCH alfalfa pellets), and works in my situation. YMMV.

[KrisD]

Dona I'm curious why we would want to leach calcium from their bones? With as many times as they are bred I would think that would be bad long term on them. We are now seeing osteoporosis in dogs and most dogs are not bred year after year for a decade. Plus these goats are heavy milkers putting. Lot of calcium in their growing babies plus the milk for 10 months at a time. What you think about the long term effects on our girls by putting them in a negative calcium state during pregnancy?

[mygoat]

Originally Posted by KrisD

Dona I'm curious why we would want to leach calcium from their bones? With as many times as they are bred I would think that would be bad long term on them. We are now seeing osteoporosis in dogs and most dogs are not bred year after year for a decade. Plus these goats are heavy milkers putting. Lot of calcium in their growing babies plus the milk for 10 months at a time. What you think about the long term effects on our girls by putting them in a negative calcium state during pregnancy?

From what I understand, mammals HAVE to pull from their bones when they come into milk. They CANNOT get enough from diet alone. That's why there's all sorts of intricate calcium homeostasis hormones for sequestering calcium and for releasing it in times of need. The onset of lactation requires an absolute tremendous effort by the body. Hypocalcemia is NOT a calcium deficiency, but a failure of calcium homeostasis.

As I've stated, the negative calcium is not for the entire pregnancy. DCAD diets, for example, are designed to be feed the last 2 WEEKS prior to parturition. I DO NOT FEED A DCAD DIET. There are no nutritionists around that work with goats, lol, and it's especially tricky when you don't feed a TMR (total mixed ration).

It is REALLY hard to feed a diet to maintenance or pregnant animals that is too low in calcium, even without supplementing - that's why they utelize the DCAD diet. The DCAD diet does not just remove supplemental calcium, it adds SALTS to the diet to put them in a negative calcium balance. Something to do with Ca ion movement and the fact that instead of absorbing it, it's passed through. This 'trains' the body to pull Ca from the bones. If you keep feeding excess Ca, it 'trains' the body to sequester Ca in bones. When it works right, everything is fine. When the body doesn't switch over from storing Ca to releasing Ca, that's when hypocalcemia occurs. A body 'trained' to sequester the Ca may not respond appropriately to the rising need for Ca release (parturition). They don't need a ton of calcium for maintenance or gestation, and most diets are adequate. They need some when kids' bones are developing, but they take that from their diet as well as their bones as they should.

Essentially what I do, is when a doe is dry, she stops getting supplemental calcium. For dairies this is their 2 month dry period, for boers this is most of the year. Any dairies still in milk recieve their grain ration on the milkstand, and it is top dressed with calcium carbonate. The hay is whatever quality I can find that year for the best price - currently it's a grassy alfalfa mix that is soft and overall very good. Just not all alfalfa like I used to be able to find/afford.

Starting 4 weeks prior to kidding I start them on grain again. We have one doe still in milk (not due till June, if at all - sending blood off this week!) she is fed separate from everyone else (dry does also get rumensin medicated grain as part of my cocci prevention program). Once the does start kidding, I start top dressing feeds with Ca. Since I cannot separate groups, I just do the best I can.

[Alice In TX/MO]

Isn't her dry time when she *should* get supplemental calcium to resupply her bones?