My year to experiment.....

LoneStrChic23 · #1 02/19/13, 03:27 PM

Last year, kidding season was MISERABLE. I Bo-Se and bolused everyone. Provided good minerals. Fed unlimited alfalfa pellets, and late pregnancy started feeding grain, gradually working up to milk stand portions before they kidded.

I had ketosis in does who did not have Hypocalcemia (was told you can't have one without the other, but I did). I lost a doe and her twins to toxemia. I had MONSTER kids..... 14lb single for a FF, then a set of twins, one 12lb, one 9lb from a small doe.....I had kids with poor suck reflexes, and wonky feet.... It was AWFUL.

Last doe to kid last year I did things differently. I did not work grain portions up to milk stand rations before kidding... Instead I fed a very modest 3 cups or so of 12% grain, and limited her alfalfa pellets to about 2lbs a day, no more. 3 weeks prior to kidding, I gave her Bo-Se. MUCH better results. Kidding went well, normal sized kids, no wonky feet, no ketosis, no toxemia. Her udder was soft and pliable and she came into milk a lil slower than my other girls who had LOTS of milk on day 1 & had a lil bit of edema. I decided I like them coming into milk a lil slower instead of full force, max production on day 1.

This year, I wanted to continue that trend. But I switched from alfalfa pellets to Chaffhaye.... Each girl gets no more than 3lbs per day. A couple cups of 12% grain with a lil soaked beet pulp, and hay/tree trimmings. This year I also started using Replamin Plus.

I was giving each grown doe 5cc once every 17 days. Two days after their Replamin, I put 2 cups of minerals out, and every time they'd finish their minerals 2 days before it was time for the next Replamin dose. Started giving Star the Replamin once a week, 3 weeks before she kidded. No Bo-Se since before she was bred.

She kidded with twins on Monday and I've never had such vibrant kids!! Lil buck was nursing my finger while I was trying to turn his head before he was born. Both were up on their feet, legs perfectly straight, before they were dry.....Was neat to see a lil kid who I haven't even had time to get the sack off, up on his feet without assistance.....Star passed her placenta VERY quickly, milked almost 2 quarts of thick, yellow colostrum from the softest udder I've ever had on a newly fresh doe and I did nothing more for her than the congratulatory bucket of hot molasses water. No CMPK this time..... No ketone strips to check for ketosis, no oxytocin to get placentas passed... Just a good scratching and a treat for a job well done.

I'm happy

I tried calcium carbonate and could not get my to reliably eat it.... Even with treats and oil drizzling...

I did 16%+ protein lactation pellets few years ago as was recommended to me.... Had HORRIBLE udder edema that lasted a week or more, and does with sore feet.

Switched to lower protein grain, sore feet went away, and udder edema was drastically reduced and when I did see it, it wasn't severe and didn't last long.

Fed alfalfa pellets free choice, adding grain the last 2 months, and working up to 2lbs a day..... Had a train wreck kidding year, metabolic issues, jumbo kids...

But this year I just feel great! I think I have finally found what works for ME and MY HERD. I know it's not what others do, but what was harped at me as "the only right way" just wasn't right here for whatever reason...

I'm actually looking forward to my next kidding instead of that feeling of terror sitting in my gut

Now lets just hope I get some Lamancha doe kids on the next one

April · #2 02/19/13, 03:49 PM

That's fantastic! I'm still trying to find the right mix. I've had mixed results almost every year. Some do great, some do horribly, and I can't quite figure out exactly what needs to change. I need to not tweak so many things at one time I think. I'm clouding my own issues!

LoneStrChic23 · #3 02/19/13, 04:10 PM

Yea, it was a gradual process finding what I needed.

I've had them off higher protein grain for a few years now and that improved several issues quite a bit, add in a few tweaks and not getting worried if I do something that's different than the goat expert of 30 years and I'm good.

This year is just a slight variation of what I did with the last doe from last year... I'm feeding Chaffhaye instead of pellets, but I'm still not allowing an alfalfa free for all, so that's basically the same, and I'm going light on the grain which is what I did with that las doe.... So the only big difference between this last kidding and my only good kidding from last year is the use of Replamin Plus, which I must say, I'm very impressed with how it all worked out

Getting a prescription for Bo-Se (or anything really) is hard for me... The vet either says I don't need it, or he'll only sell it by the dose.... Typically in the $6-$12 range per dose depending on what I ask for..... So finding a way to not need that Bo-Se prescription is nice.

yarrow · #4 02/19/13, 04:27 PM

So happy you found the winning combo for your herd... I really think many of us have been over doing the protein.. I too like them to have milk that first day, but take a couple days to really come into full milk.. I also don't work up the grain very much.. I have 11 or 12 does due by the 9th.. just today we upped (barely) the grain for the does due on monday..I think the key for us here, isn't just the feed & the calcium carbonate, but also the type of browse/forage we have in the Ozarks.. (goat pleasing good LOL.. also tick & chigger pleasing hehehe)... WOW!!! 6 - 12 bucks a dose??? I get my bottle for $20.. it costs me less then $40 to do the entire herd (kids, does, bucks)... I know we all learn from each other's experiences, but in the end...it will always be a dance to find what works for each herd.. (we all live so differently.. we don't have horrid winters here - and summers as a rule aren't that bad either-.. we don't all house our goats the same.. that is another thing that is changing here this year... I've always housed all the adult does in a big communal doe barn.. we are getting ready to build 6 smaller barns/sheds and start feeding/sleeping the does in smaller groups.. (older girls together.. less aggressive eaters together.. best friends get to stay with their bestie.. I'm not that mean LOL).. we will take the walls down on the ends of the big doe barn and turn it into a BIG loafing shed for eating hay and laying around out of the wind/sun... I really think the does will benefit from the change.. (always open to finding things that will make their lives and MINE better/easier)

again, congrats on the easy kidding and strong kids
susie, mo ozarks

southerngurl · #5 02/19/13, 05:14 PM

Awesome! It is a heck of a pain trying to figure out what is best for your herd. Sometimes they just leave you scratching your head. I've not had mine get up that fast (except lamanchas, they are stronger than nubian kids- I've had them come out sucking like you describe lol). I'm starting to suspect one can get too much alfalfa. I've always fed a bit more moderately because of price. Fed more than usual this year because of availability and dang it- my first ever case of milk fever and my first case of contracted tendons in a kid AND a deadly case of floppy kid!

I've always fed moderately on the grain, and even more so now. I don't start it until 30 days out from kidding instead of 50 since I had some kids bigger than I like. Particularly out of my toggenburg. She will have huge kids, even when there are three. Grain is rich food and doesn't take much to get a lot of carbs.

I do think the varied browse has a lot to do with it. My goats normally eat most of their food off the property. Not been so this winter. They've been in the barn eating beautiful alfalfa/orchard (mostly alfalfa). No terrible problems in my does though thankfully. Just little things that I feel show things could be better. The parasites have been worse since we started having droughts too.. less browse more bought feed maybe?

Planning to order a fodder system next week. We'll see how that plays in.

yarrow · #6 02/19/13, 05:28 PM

Ashley who are you getting your fodder system from? I have a friend in West Plains that quit her outside job to make and sell fodder systems..

susie, mo ozarks

trnubian · #7 02/19/13, 06:06 PM

So glad you found what works for you. : ) Sometimes it takes awhile. Yes I also think protein is over fed. I am probably the number one culprit. It has just always been drilled into me that protein makes milk and that's what you want. But I think it should probably be worked up to if you are going to feed a high ammount. Instead of starting out high. I think alfalfa is important. I don't believe however they need much more than a couple pounds. The key is the correct Ca to P ratio. However you get that ratio has to be what works for your herd.

Sherry in Iowa · #8 02/19/13, 06:13 PM

I am really happy for you and your goats. Sometimes less is better. And for sure..one size does not fit all when it comes to raising goats. I'm really proud of you for venturing out there and finding what is good for your goats and you. It's not always easy to stray from the "proven" road..is it?

Congrats again!

Crazy Farmgirl · #9 02/19/13, 07:58 PM

Congrats! Isn't it nice to have things working well! Glad you were able to come up with a regiment that works for you and your goats. So many things vary from farm to farm that there really is no "perfect" plan and no matter how much experience someone has it's not with your animals on your farm. I can't tell you how many times I've been told that the way I manage my animals is NOT right by conventional standards but at the end of the day I have happy healthy goats and it works for ME! That is the only thing that matters!!

Now you can enjoy your babies and hope everything else goes as smooth!!

Backfourty,MI. · #10 02/19/13, 11:22 PM

Sounds like a Great working plan Crystal & I'm so happy everything is running more smoothly this year!

LoneStrChic23 · #11 02/19/13, 11:31 PM

Thanks y'all! I worked myself up into quite the panic waiting for the first kids and it's just such a relief to know I was on the right track.....

The only doe last year that kidded without issue was a yearling FF. Since she was still growing, I left her with a creep feeder to tank up as she pleased the first 3 months of pregnancy, then put her on the same small portion of grain and rationed alfalfa to maintain the last 2 months of pregnancy..... The doe who kidded this week was a 2nd freshener, so it's nice to see it worked even with different ages/needs with minimal tweaking for each age group.

I'm a firm believer in steering clear of high protein..... When I fed the lactation pellets my girls hobbled around so bad it was pathetic.... Their feet were nice and trim, no injuries, but they walked as if on glass.... Udder edema was just awful, had one case last 9 days!! ..... After dropping down to grain no higher than 12% I saw rapid improvement.

I had no troubles with milking does, but finding that pregnancy feeding balance just killed me.... Need enough feed to support them, but not too much to cause jumbo babies...Gotta prevent those metabolic issues too.... Just an annoying puzzle that I'm relieved to have figured out. I still can't explain why one of my girls last year had ketosis without hypocalcemia...... That was just weird.

Suzy, yea $6-$12 per dose!

I bought 2cc lute, 5cc dex, 2cc oxytocin and it was $37!!!! I now have a few bottles of meds that I treasure, but I only have a lil more than 1/4 of a bottle of Bo-Se left which is what prompted me to try the Replamin experiment, instead of the pre-kidding Bo-Se shot. Not saying Bo-Se is useless or not needed, I'm just looking for a way to not have to depend on an RX that's hard for me to get.

Was so nice seeing those kids up so fast and sucking so hard within their first 15 minutes of life.......Obviously the Replamin booster pre-kidding gave momma all she needed and then some.....

Looking forward to my next kids next week...... Hoping all my happy optimism doesn't jinx me and I end up with some crazy kidding drama.... Goats and their contrary natures, I bet they give me a hard time just to be spiteful!

southerngurl · #12 02/19/13, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yarrow

Ashley who are you getting your fodder system from? I have a friend in West Plains that quit her outside job to make and sell fodder systems..

susie, mo ozarks

Half-Pint Homestead, which is in West Plains so I figure must be one and the same? Been eyeballing them for a while!

yarrow · #13 02/20/13, 12:12 AM

yeppers...that is my friend Sherry...

susie, mo ozarks

noeskimo · #14 02/20/13, 01:52 AM

Don't you think you're due for a break? I do. Glad you got it . Now if Ol' West TX could get some rain,I'd get my break (sprinkling now)

creeklady2000 · #15 02/20/13, 05:21 AM

I do not use Bo Se as it is hard for me also to get it, i read a little blurb in a magazine about a lady that raises boars and she give's them 1/2 -1 cc of mega cell after birth so that is what i am doign this year and i had a really cold kid born and her one leg was buckling, and i gave her the mega cell 1/2 cc as she was a smaller doeling and the next day she was great!!! i am having very good results with this , for those of you whoe do not know Mega Cell is a horse vit e and selenium supp for horses , it is a cherry yucca flavor they do not seem to mind it , and it seems to give them a punch of energy and that is great for my herd as it has been soooo cold here this year lot's of single temps and below , and i feed my goats a 12% horse feed and they milk the best that i have found , i have tried other feeds but this works the best for me they get grass hay and alfalfa pellets once a day not free choice ,, and i am having a great kidding season so far , i try to make sure they get lot's of water I bring them warm water once a day and then they also have water at all times in front of them , but they love it when i bring there bucket of warm every day and drink it very well.

onebizebee · #16 02/20/13, 06:34 AM

I think I am going to have to join the less is more party. Last year I fed grain to the expecting mamas. Two of them had huge kids the two most dominate does. The other two had small babies they did not get as much grain due to the other two more dominate ones eating more of it. This year I did not feed the grain until the last few weeks of pregnancy and even then only smaller amounts. Gave free choice minerals all the time. One dose of oral BoSe three weeks before kidding. They can eat as much pasture as they want and hay in the feeders. This year the kids are much smaller. Much smaller. I wonder how goats ever survived with out us humans?

MDKatie · #17 02/20/13, 08:06 AM

Hypocalcemia and ketosis don't go hand in hand, and not sure who told you you can't have one without the other, because it is very much possible to only have one! Glad you're coming up with a method that works better for your goats!

I never feed any alfalfa before freshening (because of hypocalcemia and calcium mobilization), and only work up to about a 1lb of grain per day before kidding. I don't need any huge kids!

southerngurl · #18 02/20/13, 08:15 AM

Sue Reith.

http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/index.php?topic=31.0

Alice In TX/MO · #19 02/20/13, 08:45 AM

I'm in the lower protein camp, too. Yarrow got me started down that road.

When I'm in Missouri, the goats go to the forest to browse. Unfortunately, here in Texas, on the FLAT coastal plain, they have to get by on hay, browse I cut from roadsides, and some supplemental feed.

Looking forward to heading north.

LoneStrChic23 · #20 02/20/13, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by southerngurl

Sue Reith.

http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/index.php?topic=31.0

Yep, this is why I thought ketosis had to be secondary to hypocalcemia.

But, my goats don't read the rules apparently. Doe was on an unlimited alfalfa pellet ration.... She ate well before kidding. No shaking, no low temp, but urine smelled "off". Ran to the vet, got some ketone strips and tested her urine..... Smell was stronger at the next urination and the strip instantly turned purple. She had ketosis that I caught early and treated with Dextrose. She did not have hypocalcemia, she didn't need calcium and she improved quickly with just the dextrose....

Still don't really understand what happened, but I'm happy I caught it early.