Yarrow's feeding program

[GoldenWood Farm]

Hey Susie I PM'd you the other day but I am not sure if you had a chance to read it or not. I know a few of you also use Susie/Yarrow's feeding/grain program (or at least I think you do! ).

The does are coming up on their month away mark and I need to start giving grain again to those who are a month away. I am doing this different this year with the calcium carbonate and I would love to try out Susie's feeding method with her grain but I haven't found anywhere that exactly explains it. So I am coming here asking hopefully either she or someone else can chime in for me .

Also on the Calcium Carbonate how much do you start out giving? I read that some of you (like mygoat) wait until they freshen to start giving calcium supplement but I have had a bout of two the past few years with milk fever and I prefer starting calcium a month out from kidding. I know by the time they are milking they should be at 1TBS a day or a little more if they are a heavier milker. But do you start out giving that or do you work them up? I know it isn't an exact science but I figured better safe than sorry.

I did some digging but didn't find anything that exactly answered my questions hence why I made a new thread. Also if people would like to chime in with their grain program I am curious to see how everyone does it. Maybe that should even be a sticky! A sticky on what everyone does for their feed and grain in their herd.

Justine

[yarrow]

Hi Justine... I'm sorry I didn't even see that I had a PM ('twas a busy weekend... trying to get things ready for kidding season)

hmm... my feeding program.. to be honest.. I'm not sure I would think of it as any real sort of feeding program LOL.. more of an UN-Feeding Program if anything... We have backed totally off the concentrates (first to cut out GMOs, secondly... it just made sense to me, that if I can feed single ingredient feeds and the goats look good, act like they feel good.. get pregnant easily, have uneventful pregnancies.. healthy babies & milk well.... then WHY?? would I keep feeing them like I had been???) ... seriously we feed ONLY whole oats and a little bit of black oil sunflower seeds... along with good quality grass hay... the calcium carbonate was for us, the easiest, cheapest way to get extra calcium into the herd... I don't have any real set amounts.. We top dress EVERYONE's feed (kids, bred & open does) with the calcium carbonate twice a day.. year round...as the bred does get closer to kidding and we begin to increase their grain..we throw a little bit more (as in a bigger handful) into the oats & sunflowers.. Once they kid and begin to milk.. I make sure that each doe gets some of it on top of her milk stand grain.. (it's a free for all in the big barn.. oats and sunflower seeds mixed together in a bucket.. calcium carbonate dumped on top and shake around.. then we put the feed out in big communal bowls.. I have no clue how much each doe actually gets (so far, it much be enough.. we are not having issues with low calcium/milk fever.. kids grow off well, nice strong, straight legs)... I know that a lot of folks on here will have exact amounts/recipes when it comes to feeding their herd... I'm a LAZY goat gal... I try to keep things as simple as possible and worry as little as possible.. also I like to keep my costs down (not at the expense of my girls' health, but we are spending a lot less and the overall health of the herd has actually improved)...

susie, mo ozarks

[GoldenWood Farm]

Thank you so much for answering Susie! I figured you where just busy with either kidding or getting ready for kidding so I wasn't sweating it. But with two girls hitting their month away mark in a few days I wanted to get an idea of how you fed grain.

So do you feed whole oats and sunflower seeds year round? What do you mean by free for all in the big barn? Do you not give the grain just on the milk stands? How much about do you figure each doe gets of oats/sunflower seed?

I am not an exact kind of gal either, I have never exactly measured out my grain I gave to my milking girls. I have always gone by how their weight/condition was (they didn't like that ). I am actually VERY excited to try how you grain this year. I was discussing it with my mom and she is excited as well. I think I will have better success with getting the does to eat their grain, this last year I had trouble getting some to eat all their grain.

Justine

[yarrow]

Free-for-all... we have 4 large tub/bowls in the doe barn.. in the morning and again in the evening (year round) we put out SOME whole oats & sunflower seeds/top dressed with calcium carbonate.. in the green months, it's very little .. more in late fall and during the winter (after they kid, they do get their own full ration on the milkstand...since the amount each does gets from the communal bowls isn't much..(do they need grain all year round??? not really, but I started out feeding twice a day/every day and it's just part of how we do things now.. it also gives me a chance to watch everyone eat.. see how they are feeling/are they as pushy as usual about food ect.) .... on the milkstand each doe is getting about 3lbs of oats/boss a day....(depends on how heavy of a milker it is and how well they keep their body weight...some will put it all into their milk and need more.. some are naturally fat gals/easy keepers and don't need much even in milk)..
with us being one week out from kidding I am also a CMPK pusher this week... especially with the older girls (we do 30cc's of CMPK twice a day... I don't make the mix, my girls will suck it out of a syringe... I give a sweetie chaser (cherry snow cone syrup) I just want the older gals to go into labor/kidding with good calcium levels...(with the CMPK, I **KNOW** they got their share and am not relying just on the calcium carbonate in the feed... the younger does don't get any extra and did just fine last year..

susie, mo ozarks

[Blue Run Farm]

Hope I am not highjacking your thread, but I have been looking at changing my feeding program too and would like to get some more info. Yarrow, do you not feed any alfalfa? You use the calcium carbonate for calcium instead, is that right? My girls have free choice good quality grass hay all the time and I have started giving them alfalfa twice a day in preparation for kidding (I have one due 3/13 and one due 3/30). We also feed Blue Seal Premium Dairy Goat Pellets twice a day. I was told to switch to whole oats and BOSS and was planning to do that once we start getting low on the pellets we already have.

I'd love to cut out the alfalfa if there is a better/cheaper source of calcium. Last year I had a FF freshen with a congested udder and I was told it was because the alfalfa I was giving for calcium was too high in protein. So I am being really careful with the alfalfa this year, but now I am conversely worried that I am not giving enough calcium because of that. Seems like I am liable to hurt them no matter what I feed at this point! So if I could cut out the alfalfa and still give them plenty of calcium, it sounds like it could be the way to go.

Where do you get calcium carbonate and how expensive is it? Is this something I could get at TSC or my local feed store? Thanks!

[yarrow]

I would feed alfalfa IF I could find high quality, that would always be available (I am not good with hay stress - I freak out each spring, until my year's supply of grass hay is delivered and safely in the barn.. then I go out there and smell it and look at it and feel.. well bountiful LOL!!!).. this is not an area that grows much alfalfa (rocky southern MO, just above the AR. border).. I know of one farm that grows it (bought from them in the past)... BUT.. quality varies greatly and the lady isn't a fun person to work with... We fed alfalfa pellets for years (50lbs a day..every day 365 days a year!!)... I was spending thousands for just pellets!!! SOMETHING had to give, a dear friend (one of their degrees is in dairy science) heard me whinning about costs and asked why I was feeding the pellets (I had always wondered what quality of alfalfa went into making the pellets and why they were always BRIGHT green, but no mention of dyes ect???)... he is who suggested top dressing with the calcium carbonate... (it runs right around $4 for a 50lb bag)... really cheap.. I get mine from the local feed mill (it's the same stuff they add to their feed to bump it up)... congested udders... we used to have congested udders, along with big fat moaning / groaning gals that just laid around the feeders until their due dates.. now everyone is active and going out to forage up until the day they kid.. udders are filling now (kidding starts on the 25th).. but no one is showing any edema ect...

(I think the main thing with feeding just the oats/boss is to make sure you do get some extra calcium into them and really watch them close as they get near kidding..each herd/each goat is different.. we are pass the 3 year mark on the stoppage of A. Pellets..almost 2 years of just oats/boss)

susie, mo ozarks

[GoatJunkie]

Blue Run Farm mentioned a doe having a congested udder due to too much protein in the hay..... What is a healthy amount of protein for a FF? A pregnant doe? A doe thàt is neither pregnant nor milking?

I want to make sure I'm understanding this..... you feed a good grade of grass hay (like orchard grass?) with no alfalfa at all....?

What is CMPK?

I'm so glad this thread started. I'm not able to source good alfalfa consistently, and I don't want to switch to pellets for the reasons/suspicions Yarrow mentioned....

Keeping it simple makes sense to me. Simple ingredients I can identify and more easily afford.....

[Blue Run Farm]

The alfalfa I feed is the Triple Crown Alfalfa Forage, basically a vacuum sealed bag of chopped alfalfa. I am paying about $20 for a bag (can't remember if it is 40 or 50 pounds). A bag is lasting me about a week right now, will be going through it even faster once the girls start milking. So it is really expensive by the time all is said and done. DH is constantly complaining about how expensive the goats are and we are short on money, so I need to find ways to cut back on the expense without negatively affecting my girls.

My grass hay is high quality (my hay farmer won best hay at the state fair) and I get it for a really good price because I am a longtime customer. So I try to base their diet on that as much as I can. But obviously just grass hay is not a balanced diet, thus the grain and alfalfa. Sounds like going to the calcium carbonate could be a great switch and may even be better for them since I wouldn't have to worry so much about the extra protein in the alfalfa. I am planning to transition from the dairy pellets to whole oats and BOSS as well. They also get Replamin Plus once a week.

Thanks for the advice Susie, and thanks for starting this thread Justine!

[copperpennykids]

First I want to answer the question about udder congestion:

We have only had two cases of udder congestion, and when we reduced the amount of grain that the does were receiving, pre-kidding, that stopped. We used to "lead feed" where we would start grain about 8 weeks from kidding (for our milkers, they get dryed up, if we are lucky, 8 weeks before kidding, 1 week off of grain as wait for them to slow down the milk production) and gradually increase to the full amount they would get once in milk.

NOW we do it differently and like the results better. The does get about 1/2 of the ration at the 6-8 week point, and get increased slowly to 3/4 of the amount that they will be getting once in milk. This has resulted in no udder congestion and better yet, a later lactation peak with a longer more level peak - so essentially, we are getting more milk with less "drama" or potential drama. The does look great and milk great.

Our does always have nice alfalfa (y'all would kill for the alfalfa we have here and at the prices we pay) with some grass hay thrown in for fun once in a while - you know, change of pace.

So if you are all grass hay, mostly browse, you may need to do it differently.

[copperpennykids]

Please note that I am not criticizing Yarrow (Susie) one little bit with this next post (I like and admire both Susie and her goats). Her method is working for her - but if I fed this way, my goats would be dead. Seriously.

I just want folks to be cautious making changes. One year, we tried the oat and BOSS mix. My boers were kidding first and I could tell that they were struggling at birth and that they did not have their normal abundance of milk. I pulled up and switched every goat back to our original feed store feed, and fortunately the Saanens were due 7 weeks after the Boers, so got to most of them in time.

Had our first full-blown case of milk fever in one milker (the first one to kid) but did manage to save her and her kids. A yearling kidded with a twisted front leg - it just started bowing 3 days before she kidded and kept getting worse each day.

BTW, we had been feeding the OAT/BOSS way for 9 months before we switched away. Our does milked just fine (I was watching very carefully to make sure all was well). It didn't start falling apart until I expected them to both get bred, carry kids, and milk heavily.

There are more than a few folks (we found out later, over time) that had tried to feed the same way and were experiencing train wrecks. Most of these folks had high production LaManchas, Saanens and Alpines. So whether it was the Swiss breeds or the high production animal, I don't know.

Again, this is just to let folks know that while there are many things that work for folks, sometimes things don't.

P.S. We did not feed calcium carbonate to our does (and I never heard that any of the other folks with failure did either). And when I was bringing goats back from the dead, they were getting lots of CMPK/MFO, but certainly not in a relaxed manner!

Oh, and we actually have to pay more for Rolled or Whole Oats than we do for the formulated pelleted feed that we buy.

YMMV on just about everything!

[Blue Run Farm]

The doe I had that freshened congested was getting very little grain prior to kidding. I keep them at about half grain or less until they are milking. Basically a handful to keep them happy, plus all they can eat of the grass hay. But she was getting a good bit of alfalfa. Of course, it may also have had a genetic component. She is the only doe I have had have that problem. But then I have only freshened about 5 does at this point (some multiple times). So I am still learning with every one!

[yarrow]

I don't feel at all like you are criticizing me (or the way we are feeding) Camille.. I too worry about what works for my herd... possibly not working for others.. (hence my warning at the bottom of one of the other posts to really stay on top of the calcium)... I to this day find myself sometimes worrying/wondering if things are really going as easy as it seems.. (so far,so good.. we had zero kid loses last year, mostly non-exciting kiddings..no train wrecks.. all the does milked well, held weight well and went on to become pregnant again on their first buck visit)... I need to keep pointing out that my does are NOT kept at the barn...eating just oats & boss... they have over 20 acres of woods & meadows (with LOTS of diverse plants) upon which they forage every day of the year.. Even this time of year, they go out .. eating acorns & fallen leaves.. I am NOT SURE the Oats/Boss would be enough if they didn't have true forage (not a grassy pasture) they get to pick and choose what they want to eat... takes alot of the pressure off me, as their head chef.. I don't have to buy/feed/decide ALL of what they eat... My grass hay is also from a farm that actually grows HAY.. not just a place where they go out and cut/bale whatever was growing there (my hay guy was Farmer of the Year for this area, a couple years back).. I buy his most expensive mix.. ( I also have a herd made up mostly of my own breedings.. so there are does out there that for generations have never in their lives tasted a bite of fresh alfalfa, so their bodies have never gotten use to eating it ??? might make a difference, maybe not)

susie, mo ozarks

[IndyGardenGal]

According to the cartoons, goats eat tin cans.

[southerngurl]

Originally Posted by copperpennykids

Please note that I am not criticizing Yarrow (Susie) one little bit with this next post (I like and admire both Susie and her goats). Her method is working for her - but if I fed this way, my goats would be dead. Seriously.

I just want folks to be cautious making changes. One year, we tried the oat and BOSS mix. My boers were kidding first and I could tell that they were struggling at birth and that they did not have their normal abundance of milk. I pulled up and switched every goat back to our original feed store feed, and fortunately the Saanens were due 7 weeks after the Boers, so got to most of them in time.

Had our first full-blown case of milk fever in one milker (the first one to kid) but did manage to save her and her kids. A yearling kidded with a twisted front leg - it just started bowing 3 days before she kidded and kept getting worse each day.

BTW, we had been feeding the OAT/BOSS way for 9 months before we switched away. Our does milked just fine (I was watching very carefully to make sure all was well). It didn't start falling apart until I expected them to both get bred, carry kids, and milk heavily.

There are more than a few folks (we found out later, over time) that had tried to feed the same way and were experiencing train wrecks. Most of these folks had high production LaManchas, Saanens and Alpines. So whether it was the Swiss breeds or the high production animal, I don't know.

Again, this is just to let folks know that while there are many things that work for folks, sometimes things don't.

P.S. We did not feed calcium carbonate to our does (and I never heard that any of the other folks with failure did either). And when I was bringing goats back from the dead, they were getting lots of CMPK/MFO, but certainly not in a relaxed manner!

Oh, and we actually have to pay more for Rolled or Whole Oats than we do for the formulated pelleted feed that we buy.

YMMV on just about everything!

May I ask the rest of your feeding program? What kind of hay, do you copper bolus? Sounds like the mineral/vitamin mix in your feed is what made the difference. Most certainly it would have calcium added. So one wonders if just adding calcium to your mix would have done the trick... though I doubt you'd care to experiment

[copperpennykids]

Yes, Susie, you are to be envied that goat paradise that you have! Our goats have browse, but not 20 acres of it. I pretty much consider any browse they get as "treats" and feed as if we are entirely dry lotting our goats.

Our feeding program: Dairy goats: Free choice alfalfa. Sometimes they get a lovely 1st cutting alfalfa/grass mix (and the alfalfa up here is just so nice), but alfalfa is their mainstay. They get a 16% dairy texture feed with two handfuls of barley on top and 1 handful of BOSS (their coats are just better with the BOSS). The grain is for milkers or pregnant does 6 weeks out from kidding.

They get a very nice loose mineral, free choice. We do copper bolus once a year - cheap insurance.

I think that the lack of generous varieties of plants and no extra calcium in the way that Susie was feeding it was more the problem. One long time dairy farmer, both cattle and goats told me that the oats fed in that way actually interferes with the uptake of the calcium, so I was actually compounding my errors.

Nope, it ain't broke and I'm not going to fix it!

Just wanted to give a heads up - tons of folks read but don't post - but when I was getting multiple phone calls with goats dying/crashing/kids being lost and found out that many folks tried the straight oats/BOSS thing (without Susie's extras) then I feel compelled to let folks know that this doesn't work for everyone. Make small changes slowly.

[southerngurl]

Thanks for the info!

[kandmcockrell]

I am also a CMPK pusher this week... especially with the older girls (we do 30cc's of CMPK twice a day... I don't make the mix, my girls will suck it out of a syringe... I give a sweetie chaser (cherry snow cone syrup) I just want the older gals to go into labor/kidding with good calcium levels...(with the CMPK, I **KNOW** they got their share and am not relying just on the calcium carbonate in the feed... the younger does don't get any extra and did just fine last year..

susie, mo ozarks[/QUOTE]

Yarrow,
Do you use the gel, oral or ?
Have you ever used the "Kitchen Recipe" for CMPK?

Thank you.

[GoldenWood Farm]

Hmm a lot of thoughts to mull over in my head right now. I have to do what is most cost effective but I can see where people are coming from on different feedings. I am thinking what I might do is get my normal grain mix but cutting it in half with whole oats and adding some sunflower seeds. The grain I use is 18% protein which I would love to cut down a bit on. I really wish I could find the old recipe a gal I know used! She used all whole grains and I love how her herd looked but for the life of me I can't find it.

I don't have access for tons of browse for my herd nor can I feed free choice hay or alfalfa because I would have some FAT goats. I feed second cutting orchard grass hay (which is BEAUTIFUL!) and I pay a pretty penny for that stuff. I think I will be needing to do some more research on how I want to grain the does. Susie I would love to do what you are doing but what copperpennykids brought up has been on my mind. With my does not getting the browse like your girls I worry they might not get everything they need. I wish I knew more about goat nutrition and was better at figuring stuff out like that .

The reason I am looking for a new way to grain is because the girls the past two years have been getting worse and worse about eating up their grain on the milkstand. I don't think they like the Strong's grain (the mixture I buy) as much as they used to. But if I was to go for something else I am looking at a $2-$4 price jump .

[yarrow]

Originally Posted by kandmcockrell

I am also a CMPK pusher this week... especially with the older girls (we do 30cc's of CMPK twice a day... I don't make the mix, my girls will suck it out of a syringe... I give a sweetie chaser (cherry snow cone syrup) I just want the older gals to go into labor/kidding with good calcium levels...(with the CMPK, I **KNOW** they got their share and am not relying just on the calcium carbonate in the feed... the younger does don't get any extra and did just fine last year..

susie, mo ozarks

Yarrow,
Do you use the gel, oral or ?
Have you ever used the "Kitchen Recipe" for CMPK?

Thank you.[/QUOTE]

I'm just using the oral CMPK (straight off the shelf at the feed store)... it's cheap and always available here.. My girls don't mind the taste of it (esp when they KNOW I have another syringe with the GOOD stuff in it..all of them like a sweetie LOL)... so they will actually push and shove to be the one who gets the CMPK!.. I've never made the Kitchen Recipe (I've seen it online lots of times, but again I am a LAZY goat gal... if I can buy the stuff already mixed and ready to go.. at a decent price... that's the way I'll go...

NOW... if I have someone showing the slightest signs of milk fever (slight tremor in the thigh muscles.. ears cool and held oddly... not wanting eat.. ANYTHING that could be a starting symptom...(it doesn't happen often, but I have had it happen.. Carla has always been a doe that tries to get milk fever about 2 days out from kidding.... I know I HAVE TO STAY ON TOP with her)..I HOWEVER don't use the ORAL for any real Milk Fever signs.. I go straight to the Rx Injectable CMPK (from the vet's)... I always keep it on hand.. when you need it, you need it and don't have time to be out shopping for it... I give at least 60cc's (30 on each side) every 2-4 hours.. yes, she will be a pincushion, but hopefully an ALIVE pincushion...(again, I give a sweetie reward for being a BRAVE girl and taking her shots !!!)... I lost one of my favorite does to Milk Fever almost 7 years ago.. I still have not forgiven myself for not being aggressive enough in her treatment... I got her back up on her feet (didn't catch the subtle signs.. and let it get too far).. BUT.. her heart was too involved.. She was suffering.. she was also the first adult doe, that I ever had to put down myself..it was awful.. (the neighbors had been called and came to help.. I couldn't wait and did the deed, before they got here.. I was laid out on the haybales bawling)

susie, mo ozarks

[southerngurl]

So do you just call it "calcium carbonate" when you go to the feed store? Cuz I asked mine and they seemed confused. She said they have feed grade lime though.