Help Please! Kids Dying.

[MamaSheepdog]

Hello all,

I am new to HT.

I have had three does kid in the past few days- two are maidens out of the third doe.

The first maiden, Pinyapple, kidded on the 13th. She had one doeling, who nursed well and frequently. All seemed well until yesterday morning, when I found her cold, eyes glazed, and very weak. She was a little wet around her vulva and on her inner thighs, but no diarrhea. Eyes and nose were clear.

I immediately brought her inside and tried to warm her with hot water bottles and warm towels. She warmed up a bit, but not much. She died within the hour.

The other maiden doe, Honeysuckle, also had one doeling, born yesterday. It is now in the same state, but also has some yellowish soft feces on the hind legs. We are trying to warm her up- she is not as cold as the other one was- but she is bleating pathetically and her eyes also look glazed.

I put a bit of molasses in her mouth in the hopes that the sugar will give her a boost. I am afraid she is dying also.

The grandam of these kids, Oprah, had two doelings on the 14th, and they look fine.

All of these goats are housed in the same area, but penned separately.

The shelter they are in is only two years old, and was built as a foaling shed for one of our mares. Last year Oprah and our other doe Alby kidded in the same area. There were no health issues with those.

The only other use it has had was for two litters of Aussie pups we bred. Otherwise we use it to store our hay.

I hope someone here will have some idea of what could be causing this rapid decline and death in these kids. Losing these little guys is hitting our family hard, and it is the last thing we expected.

I have had goats for 8 years or so, and have bred them a few times without issue. This is the first time any of our goats have ever had any health problems whatsoever.

They are fed organic alfalfa hay which has some weed content (the grower doesn't use herbicides), which I also feed to our horses and rabbits. They also get grains that are spilled by my rabbits (oats, barley, and Black Oil Sunflower Seeds).

Any suggestions you have will be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[Ford Zoo]

Oh gosh! hope someone can help, how heart breaking! Never having dealt with this, my first thought would be to treat them with antibiotics, thiamine, and probios. But she seems so young to need these things.

Have you checked a rectal temp?

I don't know enough about rabbits to know if they would add something in the mix? Good luck, I hope someone can give you better advice than my ramblings.

[MamaSheepdog]

Thanks Ford Zoo. I haven't taken the temp- we are just trying to keep it warm at this point.

I do have Penicillin (Pen G procaine), and probios, but no thiamine. Is it available at Tractor Supply?

Honestly, I don't hold much hope for this one, but want to prevent the others from getting the same thing, whatever it may be.

[nehimama]

I wish I knew something that could help you! How heartbreaking for you.

[dbarjacres]

How cold is it by you? And are the moms producing milk?

[Ford Zoo]

If you need thiamine and don't have any from TSC, you can give orally, sorry I don;t have the dose right now, but the human pills crushed up can be given by syringe.

[MamaSheepdog]

Originally Posted by dbarjacres

How cold is it by you? And are the moms producing milk?

It has been mild the past few days- nights probably in the mid forties, and it is 59F right now at 5:30 pm. We are in the mountains in California and are expecting snow Tuesday.

The does are all producing milk.

Ford, I don't have any thiamine tablets either. It is over a two hour round trip to town to get any... but if it is likely to save the seemingly healthy ones, I could make the trip.

[CaliannG]

Call your vet and get doses of injectable thiamine and Bo-Se. These are Rx prescriptions you need from the vet, but you only need a 1/3cc of Bo-Se for each kid, and they should only be a few dollars for all that you might need.

Keep them WARM. If they are not warm, wrap them in a plastic bag (head out, so they can breathe) and put them in a tub of HOT water until their temp gets up to 100 or more.

Do NOT try to feed them when they are cold. Their digestive system shuts down when they are cold so the milk will just sit in there and curdle, causing more problems. Get them WARM, by putting them in a bathtub of hot water if you have to, and keep them warm. That is the biggest thing to saving sick kids, is getting and keeping them warm.

If you need to keep them inside in a box with a hot pad, then do so.

[MamaSheepdog]

She just passed.

I will bring the other two in for the night.

Caliann, what do you think is causing this? What does the thiamine and Bo-Se do?

Should the two seemingly healthy kids get the thiamine and Bo-Se "just to be safe"?

[Ford Zoo]

So sorry you lost another, sometimes there are so many variables, we just can't figure out why, and yours certainly is puzzling to me.

Thiamine (Vit B-1) in a kid so young can help perk them up and increase appetite, Bo-se is Selenium and Vit E. If the kids are born to a defeicient mother, a myriad of problems could ensue. I would treat the other kids with both just to be on the safe side. Here is a link with an explanation of supplements in goats. If you do not have thiamine close by, a Vitamin B complex will do (I would use 50mg thiamine/day for a kid, so if you only have B complex available, dose according to the thiamine content) Good luck!
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/ar...mineral06.html

[motdaugrnds]

50 mg? That sounds like a lot, especially for a new born. What is the rationale for that much?

MammaSheepDog, I feel for you. ((hugs)) You're getting good advice here. I always put a lot of stock in what Caliann says.

[KrisD]

Have the moms had BoSe? The should have gotten a dose a month before the delivered. I always give the kids BoSe as soon as they are born. I use the paste but if it's an emergency I would do the injectable so it woks faster.
Always get them warm as fast as you can. Hot water bottles and heating pads don't work fast enough t times like this.
The healthy kids should have BoSe regardless and the Thiamin certainly won't hurt anything.

[Donna1982]

Sounds like they are getting hypothermia. Make sure they have a warm dry place to be. I just lost my favorite Boer doe tonight from it. She was older then yours and already had issues. Once they get them temps down its hard to bring them back up. Its REALLY heart breaking and I feel for you.

[wintrrwolf]

The very young and old have a harder time regulating their temps. It takes so much more energy to keep warm. I feel for you and I worry about the kiddo's that I have that were recently born that i double check the warming light twice before going to bed.
From reading what you posted both doelings that passed were singles, the twins are doing fine because they have each other to snuggle up to...
to me the scariest thing about goats is when they go down they go down FAST

[Backfourty,MI.]

Already given good advice from the others & I agree with Donna, sounds like they are getting too cold & then their system can't digest the milk from their momma.
Did their navels get dipped or sprayed with iodine after they were born?
Wishing you the best of luck with the 2 remaining babies & I am sorry for your loss of the other 2. Very heartbreaking.

[KrisD]

I wanted to say I'm really sorry for your loss, we've all been there and it stinks big time.

[MamaSheepdog]

Thank you everyone for your replies and condolences.

I was busy trying to save one of the two twins last night so didn't post. She had diarrhea and was chilled but not as far gone as the others when I brought her in. A hot water bath brought her temp back up, but she passed anyway.

The lone survivor stayed in the house overnight, and is doing well this morning. She nursed, and is now back inside.

We have to leave for several hours this afternoon. I am about to go buy a bale of straw and bed the shelter more deeply with it.

Would it be best to bring the baby in and leave her in the house while we are gone, or allow her to stay outside so she can nurse?

I also plan on keeping her crated at night until she can thermoregulate better. How long should I continue doing so?

[MamaSheepdog]

Kris D,

no, the does did not get Bo-Se. I have never given my does anything other than hay and grains and fresh forage when available.

Worming is about as far as I go with medications unless an animal is ill.

My neighbor does have Selenium and E for his donkeys. What is the mg per ml in the goat preparation, and the dosage per kg?

[CaliannG]

So sorry you are going through this, MamaSheepDog.

Okay, let me see if I can explain.

The two main problems that effect young kids, and kill them off quickly, is WMD (White Muscle Disease) and FKS (Floppy Kid Syndrome). These are caused, respectively, by thiamine deficiency and selenium deficiency in the Mommas. While such deficiencies are not readily noticeable in adults, they are highly noticeable in young kids. When the Mommas are deficient, they don't have enough to give to their kids in utero, and they are not putting these things in their milk, either.

To combat these problems, we generally start feeding grain to pregnant does about a month or 6 weeks before they are due to kid (for B-vitamins) and give them a Bo-Se shot about 2-4 weeks before they are due to kid (for selenium). This ensures the kids are not born deficient.

If, however, a person already has the problem with deficient kids, then the thiamine and Bo-Se shots are given directly to the kids to correct it.

Once they go down, if you can get them warm and keep them warm, it buys you time to go get the medications you need to save them. Since NO health problems EVER happen with goats on a Tuesday afternoon when the vet is open, but instead are first noticed at 11 p.m. on a Saturday night, when NOTHING is open, a non-drug, stabilizing treatment is necessary.

The Bo-Se and thiamine injections will not hurt the remaining kids. Think of them like injectable vitamins.... if the kids don't need them, they will just excrete the excess out of their system. If, however, they DO need them, nothing else will do the trick.

If you have more pregnant does, I would suggest that you treat them for deficiency *now*, before they kid, so you don't have to worry about it.

Also, in case it WAS hypothermia, you might want to consider a heat lamp or other warming set up in your barn. Gena has a great set up using a plastic barrel with a heat lamp on the center and a door cut out. Search the goat forum for "warming barrel" for the thread, as it has pictures.

[CaliannG]

Originally Posted by MamaSheepdog

Kris D,

no, the does did not get Bo-Se. I have never given my does anything other than hay and grains and fresh forage when available.

Worming is about as far as I go with medications unless an animal is ill.

My neighbor does have Selenium and E for his donkeys. What is the mg per ml in the goat preparation, and the dosage per kg?

Dosage is by weight. It should be on the label, as different companies have different preparations, and therefore different dosages. Round up if the weight is not exact.

I'd like to make a little note about natural raising. In the "wild" goats, and their close relatives/ancestors, the ibex, tend to roams hundreds, if not thousands of miles during the different seasons, consuming many thousands of different plants to make up their nutritional needs. During birthing season, they may be in one place with a soil that has a high selenium and copper content (and therefore the plants have the high selenium and copper content), while during breeding season, they may be hundreds of miles away, consuming completely different plants with, say, higher fat and protein content.

Wild caprines are not stationary, and have an exceptionally varied diet that changes month-to-month.

When we keep goats, we are generally keeping them in a limited area. Some folks are blessed with having a couple hundred acres for their goats to browse upon. This still does NOT mimic their "wild" lifestyle, as that couple hundred acres is set in a certain geographical location with only slightly varied flora and soil composition.

In smaller places, it gets even worse. My goats have 10 acres. Now, I TRY to plant that with a variety of forbes, grasses, etc., and also make sure they have sugarberry, oak, and mesquite saplings to munch upon (along with the ubiquitous Texas Cedar) as those are deep rooted vegetation that draws minerals up from the sub-soil...but still, it is not enough. My soil has a CERTAIN composition....okay, kinda, in selenium, fairly better in copper, high in iron, low in cobalt, etc. The vegetation only has so much to work with.

And since I am not going to play wandering shepherd and accompany my goats as they munch their way up to North Texas for the fall, or West Texas for Spring...I have to supplement them so that they get what their bodies need to be healthy.

I cannot stress ENOUGH the importance of a good, loose mineral, or weekly multivitamin/mineral gel dosage. Cargill Right Now Onyx is the loose mineral of choice among goat owners/breeders. Do NOT get anything that says "For sheep and goats", because it does not contain enough copper in it. Avoid even goat specific minerals, as they are the same as cattle minerals, except they put "Goat" on the bag and doubled the price. A good LOOSE (NOT block) cattle mineral that is high in copper is so very important.

If you are hands on with your goats at least once a week, you might try the Replamin Plus Gel instead. It is more bioavailable than mineral grains, and you don't have to worry about waste, fouling, etc., or if everyone is eating it, because you are dosing them. If you have a lot of goats that you do not handle regularly, though, it may not be feasible.

For your remaining kid, it is better for her to be warm than to nurse. Keep her inside while you are gone. If she becomes chilled while you are gone, you won't be there to help her. Plenty of time for her to nurse when you get back and can monitor her condition.

I hope this has been helpful.