Barn space shared with cats ok for goats?

[porcupine73]

I was out surveying the available space today trying to figure out how to divide off a section of it for the goats. The area I have to work with is about 10 ft x 20 ft.

I don't own the barn though, and this barn currently has two cats in it. At one time it had six cats in it but they have slowly passed away over the years. The barn size is roughly 50 ft x 20 ft. It's actually an old army barracks from the '40s.

The barn, well, it smells pretty bad. It's a pretty good odor of cat urine. The cats seem to have urinated on a lot of things out there over the years.

It's making me second think using any space in this barn for goats because of that odor. But maybe it's not as big an issue as I think. Pretty much I'm going to have to do my milking in that area too, and I'm getting concerned that this cat urine odor might get into the milk?

My other option might be getting say a 10x10 metal shed from Home Depot or something similar, would that be better?

[mygoat]

Smell can be removed with a good cleaning. Clean down into dirt if it's dirt floor, put down a good layer of lime, and cover with shavings. If the walls/floor are wood or cement, clean it as well as possible and spray down all surfaces thoroughly with white vinegar. It is the ONLY thing I've found to get out cat urine smell when I put it through the washing machine. May not eliminate the problem, but should reduce it drastically! Once again, put down a layer of lime and bed well and it should be fine. You could alternately/additionally use baking soda. An additional problem is toxoplasmosis. Thankfully, cats only shed it for about a week after being infected (and otherwise don't really shed it but can spread it if they're consumed by other animals... which is not likely). I would bet MOST goats raised in a barn with cats have already long been exposed. I would bet a large percent of the population has been exposed too. It is a complication for PREGNANT animals that get infected the FIRST time, possibly in humans/animals with severely weakened immune systems (which in animals should be culled and not bred anyways...). If infected when NOT pregnant, it is probably not a problem to dam or future fetuses.

[porcupine73]

Great, thank you. It does have a concrete floor. I will get some lime and white vinegar.

Hm toxo and the cats that is a good question. These cats were 'taken in' from outdoors, I have no idea what if any shots they ever got. (They're not my cats; I'm just being allowed to use the back of this barn if I want). I think the main offender is an intact male, he also poops on the floor in there wherever he wants even though there are clean litter boxes. The spayed small female cat, I like that one, she's a good aggressive mouser.

I was planning on using chicken wire up across the top of the goat stall to make sure no cats can get in. Probably not an issue really with fuller grown goats but I think it would be risky with kids.

Vinegar, that gives me an idea, I make a lot of kombucha, and I have several gallons that are well well fermented. At this stage it basically becomes vinegar. I often use it in place of vinegar. Maybe I will find a particular cat urine soaked area and test some lime and kombucha vinegar on it to see if it works. Else I'll buy a few gallons of white vinegar.

Maybe I'll apply it with a pesticide sprayer, then I can pretty well coat the barn with it. I can take normal farm and barn smells but cat urine yech that stale nasty odor is well nasty.

That reminds me I have a gallon of 'natures miracle' for in the house, that stuff works very well, but it's expensive, and I can't afford to buy the 5 gallons I estimate it would take to coat the barn.

[KarenBaby]

Vinegar will actually neutralize the cat urine - so it's the best to use. Nature's Miracle is just not practical in the barn - although it works and in the house, it doesn't smell like pickles!

I second all the advice from mygoat.

I have a whole slew of barn cats - they tend to just show up - so my cat population varies from well cared for vaccinated and healthy to OMG! I don't have problems with toxo - and my cats like to sleep with the goats and poop in their bedding.

[Otter]

I wouldn't worry about the cats at all.

Old fashioned whitewash does a number on not only smells, but bacteria and even insects hiding in teeny crevices in the walls.

[CaliannG]

If it has a concrete floor and you can open doors to it for good ventilation, the way to get cat urine smell out is:

Get a $10 fertilizer/garden sprayer from your favorite Big Box Home Improvement Store.

Get how ever many gallons the sprayer is big of bleach from your grocery store. Fill sprayer with bleach.

Open up all doors to the barn. Start spraying every surface you can find...concrete, wood, whatever. Leave the barn. Return a half an hour later and hose it all out.

The bleach react with the dried (or wet) ammonia in the urine and creates a gas, that is taken away by the breeze. It literally out-gasses the urine from the wood and concrete...however, you want PLENTY of ventilation, because you don't want to breathe it. It is basically the same thing as mixing bleach with ammonia.

However, it is the only thing I have found that actually REMOVES the urine, rather than just covering the smell of it. Even with vinegar, a week later whatever you treated smells like urine again. Bleach actually takes it OUT.

[aart]

Ammonia and Bleach-Scary. Boy, that would convert the ammonia for good tho!


I wonder if a carbon cartridged respirator ($30 at HD) would protect you from the fumes? Not that you don't need massive ventilation too, but I would want some absolute protection as well as just not having to smell it. Goggles might be a good idea too.

[1sttimemom]

I would sure NOT mix bleach with ammonia. That makes a deadly poison gas!!!

Our old farm house was owned by people with about a zillion cats. Many lived inside and is reeked of cat pee. What we did was air the place out big time & remove part of the nastiest carpet. Scrub wood subfloors and all walls with a basic cleanser. I don't remember what detergent we used, might have just been a bucket of hot water & dish soap. Then we primed & painted. No more smell. For your barn I would clean it all out, air it out, wash down cement floor & walls with some type detergent. I like dish soap cuz it cuts greasy stuff and tom cat spray tends to be greasy. I think it will be OK after a good cleaning.

[porcupine73]

Thank you for the help. I'm going to work on it this weekend. I got the supplies to make my animal stalls.

I'm think I'm going to try spraying the nastiest areas with vinegar first, letting that sit, then coming back and hitting the entire area with whitewash. I'd like to use bleach but I don't really have any good way of rinsing out the area with water afterwards, at least not right now.

The hardest part of the whitewash is finding the dang hydrated lime. Tractor supply supposedly has it but they were out. Home Depot and Lowes don't carry it, at least not in my area. Not at Ace Hardware and not at Sears either. Finally found a local small feed center that happens to have a 50 lb bag left from last year.

[earthkitty]

It is my understanding that hydrogen peroxide is just as effective as bleach, and less toxic.

Barn animals have been living with barn cats forever. I prefer not having any mice, which certainly can be deadly, to worrying about my barn cats peeing in the straw.

[CaliannG]

Mixing bleach and ammonia does create chloramine and hydrazine gasses; the main problem with this is ventilation. Inhaling these undiluted gasses is dangerous.

However, like with most things, it comes down to the ventilation. Burning old carpet releases hydrogen cyanide, which is fatal if inhaled in quantity. Yet, lots of people have dragged their old carpet to their burn pile and lit it off, and had a plume of smoke fly into their faces, said, "Yuck, that stuff STINKS!", and managed not to drop dead.

Even bleach, by itself, if used in a non-ventilated room can be dangerous. When mixed with water, it off-gasses hydrochloric acid, which, if inhaled, can scar your lungs worse than pneumonia.

There are dangers to every chemical we use. The trick is to understand chemical reactions and use them wisely.

When Ancient Kitty was alive, well, she was incontinent, being so old. I do not like living with the smell of old cat urine and tried many different things to combat that. With things that you can put in the washing machine, it was fairly easy: just run it through SEVERAL cycles of a hot water wash, and make sure to add sodium carbonate and a non-ammonia based soap to the wash every time.

With things that you cannot put in the washing machine, I had to get more inventive. So I learned to use bleach to outgas the ammonia in the urine. However, it IS important to use LOTS of ventilation. When I would do so, I opened all of the windows and had fans stationed at several of those windows to create a positive airflow. In a barn, with large doors, it is easy to achieve the same effect by opening all of the doors and have a fan that blows through if you are not being blessed with a breezy day.

No, I would not suggest using this technique in an area without a positive flow of fresh air AT ALL. However, I am not afraid of chemical reactions, and with the proper precautions, such reactions can be useful.

Like the fact that bleach will combine with the ammonia in urine to form a gas that removes it from the item that was urinated upon, and can then be blown out of a window.

I might mention that I am more sensitive than most people to both chlorine and hydrochloric acid. Even minute amounts of either cause me to break out in hives, so I have to be VERY careful in using bleach to clean anything. (Even swimming for 5 minutes in a pool treated with chlorine will cause me to break out in red spots all over.) So, rubber gloves and a LOT of ventilation is what allows me to keep my house clean. Okay, well perhaps I am a little CDO, and want my house to be *sterile*.

[mekasmom]

Personally, I wouldn't worry about the cats. I would just clean out the old bedding, put in fresh, and use it as is. Goats live on the ground, eat off the dirt, and come into contact with other species all the time. Somehow they live anyway.