Traits to breed for?

[Shayanna]

Sage is 75% grade registered American Alpine. When in milk, at her peak, she supposedly gives 1 1/2 gallons a day. She also supposedly puts EVERYTHING into her milk so she needs extra supplementation aside from usual grain to keep up condition. She is such a sweetheart, wants to follow you around, and if you pet her rear end or touch her udder, she automatically squats, like she wants you to milk her, but she doesn't even have milk yet! And she has wattles. Her coloring isn't really the prettiest, but I guess she throws good looking babies. She is bred for March kids to an American Alpine buck, and we want to keep a doeling to breed up to purebred.

Are these "willingness-to-milk" traits, traits to breed for? Should I keep all her doelings from this year, and breed up from all of them?

And how do yall feel about wattles? I think they are adorable, but what is the general consensus. Are they marketable? How genetic are they?

[Shayanna]

What traits do you breed for in your milkers?

[CaliannG]

The Will to Milk is definitely a trait to breed for. You'll find a 3rd-3rd-3rd feeling among goat people about wattle: a third of the folks adore them, another third think they are weird and funny looking. The last third don't have an opinion one way or the other and will want to know how her attachments are holding up.

Wattles are, I believe, a dominant trait.

The traits I breed for are, in order:

1. Temperament, always first and foremost.
2. Udder conformation. That means good, strong attachments that will hold up through the years.
3. Milk production.
4. Overall conformation. I am looking for structural soundness here, rather than what is popular in the show ring.
5. Everything else.

[Alice In TX/MO]

1. Temperment
2. Milkable teats
3. Good udder - attachments, volume, placement
4. Production
5. Worm resistance
6. Good hooves (I have one goat from which we will keep NO doelings. Horrible soft white feet.)

[coso]

Will to milk is definitely something you want, and can be breed for. You can always sell a good milker doesn't matter what she looks like. I would rather feed a doe milking 12lbs a day then one milking 8. Wattles are a preference. Some like them some don't. If you don't you can always clip them off when they are born. You won't ever be able to breed up to purebred since the Alpine herd book is closed. I you download ADGA Linear Appraisal handbook it will show you other traits, as far as structural, that can help in the longevity of the udder, and the goat. Color can also be taken into consideration (just ask the Nubian, LaMancha, and Nigerian breeders) as far as saleability goes. Alpines also have enough color differences that some are more desirable then others. I like the Cou Blanc color the best.

[Shayanna]

But you can breed up to a high enough percentage to what is considered and American Alpine can't you? Thats my understanding. I like Cou Blanc as well. My other doe is a two tone chamoisee that is just gorgeous.

[CaliannG]

Originally Posted by coso

I like the Cou Blanc color the best.

~smiles~ My favorites, in order, are: Cou Blanc, Sundgau, and Pied.

[CaliannG]

Originally Posted by Shayanna

But you can breed up to a high enough percentage to what is considered and American Alpine can't you? Thats my understanding. .

Yes. At third generation, they can be registered as Americans, as long as they have been bred to an American or Purebred for each generation.

[Shayanna]

This is my American Alpine, Demi. Sundgau is probably my favorite color, Two-tone chamoisee second, and Cou Blanc third.

Edited to say:
Don't worry, none of the electrical wires is hot, and we don't have any chronic chewers in the herd.

[Otter]

See, now I guess I'm backwards from everyone else. My list goes more;
Productivity
Conformation
Temperament

But that's because there are a LOT of goats to choose from (by which I don't mean in my personal herd, but nothing stops me from buying goats in, kwim?) So out of the goats that pass the test of productivity and conformation - THEN you give yourself the luxury of the sweetest ones.

If they don't have production and conformation that helps them stay sound and productive - what does it matter how sweet they are?
If I want a lot of sweet tempered, mostly useless critters around, well, I've got a whole pack of dogs for that.

I guess as far as I'm concerned, personality is the icing on the cake. You don't want a cake without it, but having icing on cardboard is just as bad as having nothing at all. Shayanna, your doe sounds like a great doe, and her personality would seal the deal for me, but it would be her production and willingness to milk that made the deal in the first place.

Not that I am a huge breeder of goats, but that is my criteria for choosing any breeding stock of any species

[CaliannG]

~smiles~ For me, sweetness matters as these are animals that will be handled daily. All of the production and conformation in the world doesn't matter if they have to be rodeo'ed up on the stand, or it is a fight to get anything done with them. If they are bossy, destructive, difficult to work with, etc., then their value as home milkers is greatly diminished.

That would be true of hornless goats. I have culled a LOT of goats that were disbudded just because they were a pain in the arse to handle. Tameness is one thing, a home milker has to be even and steady of temperament and gentle as well, else she isn't much good as a home milker. Perhaps she'd be okay in a dairy environment where there are plenty of handlers to manhandle her around...but even dairies cull problem temperaments.

Add in that I do not disbud, and temperament becomes even more important.

I agree that production and conformation ARE important; but given a choice between a high producer that is a pain to milk and handle, and a moderate producer that is a dream to work with, I'll pick the latter every time.

Most of my stock go as home milkers as well, so it is also important to my customers. Their first criteria is a friendly, easy-to-handle goat as they are going to be the ones that has to handle and milk that goat twice a day.

So, I guess it depends. If I were breeding meat or fiber goats, I don't know that temperament would be as high up on my list. But as I am breeding home milkers, it really has to be my first priority.

That moderate milker that is a dream to work with is more likely to have a permanent home than the high producer that is a witch. But then again, it is not like production and conformation aren't things I select for. It isn't like you are going to find terrible udders or awful stature in my breeding program... you won't. And it isn't like my girls aren't good producers, either. But given the choice of a 14# per day producer with an average temperament, and a 10# per day producer with a terrific temperament, it's the latter who I will choose first to propagate my lines.

[onebizebee]

Oh my I would take an easy milker any day over being a pretty goat! I hate fighting bad tempered goats on the milk stand!

[mygoat]

Temperament is one of the least heritable traits.

I'd select for everything else first before temperament. Most of temperament is training and raising, not genetics.

[Cyngbaeld]

I've had to put a bullet in two bucks that thought they were boss. The buck I have now is an absolute sweetheart. I think temperament is one of the MOST important things to select for and I will not keep a skittish doe or any creature that is mean. I cull first for temperament.

[Otter]

There's a world of difference between breeding problem animals and saying that temperament is way down on my list.

What I'm saying is that if they don't pass all the other tests first, then temperament doesn't count.

My goats are basically pets, but it works for all breeding stock.
When I pick a breeding rabbit, it has to be from a litter of at least 6 for minis and 8 for standards. It has to have excellent conformation. It has to be from parents that produce consistently well.
THEN I pick the sweetest one of those who make the cut. If it's mean, it doesn't pass the final test.
But it's the final test - not the first one.

My Dryna is a sweetheart of a goat. I adore her. DS took some of his first steps holding on to her and she just ate it up.
But she managed to get her hussy self bred this year and it shouldn't have happened. The only reason to breed her was because I didn't have another goat to milk . I love her, but she's a dud with a major conformational flaw. All the personality in the world won't change that.

[Hollowdweller]

I would suggest that you decide what traits are important to you.

Remember that the more traits you select for the harder it is to reach your goal.

Normally for me I weigh the milk so not only peak milk but also a goat that milks more in late lactation is something I select for.

Probably second is ease of milking. I hate small orifices and I prefer semi large teats but with very good teat delineation so when I am milking my hand isn't creeping up on the actual udder.

Then conformation. I linear appraise, so since most of mine milk easy now I sort of weigh a combination of milk and their final score.

Finally I keep a list of all my goats and any offspring I keep. I write down any time they are sick, any thing they do that particularly makes it easier or harder on me, any anomalies like double teats, color etc, any kids I had to pull, how long they lived. This helps me keep track of hardiness, ease of breeding and kidding and a lot of the stuff you can't get from appraisal or weighing the milk.

But if you want to be a goat BREEDER not a goat HAVER then you need to understand pedigrees and stats and how to use or buy animals that can throw the traits you want. For those traits not easily discerned you have to select those within your own herd where you know your animals intimately.

[CaliannG]

Originally Posted by mygoat

Temperament is one of the least heritable traits.

I'd select for everything else first before temperament. Most of temperament is training and raising, not genetics.

True, but since all of my animals are raised the same, with the same environment and training, then I am pretty safe in thinking that the sweetest ones are due to their inherited part, right?

Although, Dr. Horner at IDGRC might disagree with you on how inheritable temperament may be. Before the last auction, he e-mailed and said, "Stay away from any of the kids whose eartags start with G11. We got rid of that buck this year as he did terrible things for temperament, and not a single one of his progeny had good ones."

Since he has a thousand or so goats to compare temperaments with, all in the same facilities with the same handling, I have to believe that he wasn't talking out of his rear.

[IndyGardenGal]

Pretty much what Caliann and Alice said is what I'm looking for. It's almost like a point system for me. Some goats get points in production and temperament that make up for the fact that they don't have the best attachments.Other goats are such strong resilient goats with great conformation, I can overlook the fact they can be a bit of a diva.

If they completely fail one area, it's not something I can overlook.

[KarenBaby]

I had a doe that really wasn't thrilled about people when she was young - the kids took her to the fair and she got a grand champion junior doe trophy. The judge said,"I just can't find anything I don't like about her. I can't wait to see her in milk" NEVER heard a judge not able to find a criticism for a goat - even if it's something unimportant. This was a Considine daughter judging - she grew up in a world of the best goats and knew her stuff.

Well, time came to milk her - the bitty was a bad kicker! My milk stand is only partly finished and I dont' have the means to lock their heads in - so I have to collar and tie them. so collared and tied - I also had to tie her back leg back so she couldn't kick over my milk (I hand milk). Usually, this practice only takes a time or two until a young doe realizes the grain in front of her is more important to her than the hands on her teats. This doe had to have a leg tied for a month of milkings! I contemplated culling her but she had a beautiful udder and great production and all those wonderful things the judge said - so we took her to fair that year - she got grand champ senior doe and best in show. She doesn't kick at all anymore but she's just not in your pocket like my favorite goats are. She's all business - milk, feed and leave me be. I'll come to you and check for treats but I really dont' need to be petted or talked to.

So her third year at the fair, she got grand champ senior doe and best in show again. Her daughter got grand champ junior doe.

2013 will be her fourth year at the fair - her daughter will be shown as a dry yearling - she hasn't kidded yet but I'm anxiously awaiting in hopes of at least one doe kid to keep and let my daughter show.

Oh yeah, she's a grade doeling from a commercial herd - they had too many doelings so they sold some. I paid $35 for her. I wouldn't sell her for a million dollars! She looks like an oberhasli - she is bred to my ADGA oberhasli buck. Yeah, I can't wait!

What you breed for is a very personal thing. Ask 10 goat breeders what they breed for and you'll get 10 different lists. But you do see the trend - production, conformation and temperment. Color is definately last - but it helps sell babies sometimes.

You need to think about what direction you want your herd to go in and set your own goals accordingly. If you take a few years to get going in the right direction - if you change your mind and change direction, so what - we're all in this because we love goats, right?!