Down Doeling

[Awnry Abe]

I have a Boer doeling that is down that I would like to get some help on.

I stopped by the pen on my way to work to check on things. I saw her down. Laying on her side, legs fully extended and trembling, head bent back. I thought she was seizing, but she wasn't. Faint moaning. I presumed that she was on the brink of death. Breathing was soft, but uninterupted. Temp 103.6. Her eyelids where pink to light pink--but I had an abnormally difficult time getting them to peel back. It was as if her face was rigid. Pupils where very dialated looking.

Prior to today, I had no indication of problem. I trimmed hooves on Saturday, and she was just as spunky as always. I thought she was fine yesterday evening, too, but I didn't spend an appreciable amount of time with the goats yesterday, so she may have started flagging then. There has been no material change in diet for several weeks. The yearlings are still on the same big round bale that has put out about a month ago. 11 days ago, I put out a CrystalLix goat tub. Other than the hay and tub, they are on pasture. Temps here have been yo-yo-ing. 40 degrees one day, 20 degrees the next, 60 the day after that. The past few have been balmy and moist.

She was probably one of my healthier, faster growing doelings from last year--born on Father's day.

Because she was non-responsive this A.M., I tubed in some homemade electrolyte and some B-1. DD said she swollowed the electrolyte this afternoon. She has not gone pee or poop today. She is starting to lay in a normal position and has gotten on her feet once or twice, but is unable to walk (she falls. Front legs cave). This evening's temp was 102.6. She no longer is moaning, but the lethargy remains. I gave her 2cc of Bio-Mycin this evening. I gave her another tube-dose of about 20cc electrolyte. Her previously tight facial skin is more relaxed.

I managed to get ahold of 2 vets, one that actually seemed to know what a goat is. Based on facts that I may be forgetting to divulge here, she ruled out pneumonia, polio, listeriosis. She did not think it was parasite load based on her sudden drop.


I will also add that I was physically prepared to end her suffering this morning. The general consensus amoungs us newbs was that we were not going to turn her around. But I had a horrendous thought that if my mismanagement put her in this predicament, then she deserved some help. Plus she was tail wagging when I walked up with the gun...If I get a negative prognosis, I'll put her down and move on, learning what I can.

What I ultimately want to find out, whether she lives or dies, is what I did to let her get in that situation?

[Goat Servant]

Has she had CTD vacs?
Maybe try some thiamine as well, just throwing these out.

[Backfourty,MI.]

http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/ar...steriosis.html

My 1st thought while reading your thread was Polio or Listeriosis. Why does the vet think that's not her problem? Above is a link that explains both & the treatment for each.

Do You vaccinate & if so is she UTD on her CD & T vaccines?

[Backfourty,MI.]

Nancy we must have been typing at the same time because I also asked about CD & T vaccine.

[Awnry Abe]

No to the CD/T. That, plus keeping better records on deworming, have been key takeaways for improvement in this program.

The only form of thiamine was in a b-complex probiotic gel. The label didnt indicate ratios of the Bs. My intent was to give her 5cc, but let's just say that I had a bit of a tube to syringe disaster. Based on how much I was wearing, I think she got about 5.

I can't say how exhausting this has been. Normally, this herd puts a bounce in my step and a smile on my face. I am really too far gone to follow up anymore this evening.

DD, who is wise beyond her years, told me tonight, "Dad, you are stopping in by the barn before work, because you know there is going to be a stiff goat there and I don't want to be the one to find her when I do chores."

[Awnry Abe]

The vet ruled out polio & listeriosis because the feed has been stable since I put out the tub a week ago. Their hay is a large round bale in a hay-saver ring. It is possible that they may have gotten into a moldy chunk, but it all seems fresh to me.

[CaliannG]

Okay, the vet is an idiot. It is not ONLY feed changes or mold that can cause Polioencephalomalacia (Goat Polio), and Listeria is caused by a bacteria that is all over.

Because the two have similar symptoms that make it difficult to tell them apart, when symptoms arise, treatment is generally for both.

For Polioencephalomalacia, the only treatment is Thiamine. It is caused by Thiamine deficiency. For Listeria, large doses of STRONG antibiotic. If she has Listeria, she is already dead...she didn't receive treatment soon enough. If it is Polioencephalomalacia, she MIGHT survive through tomorrow, but unlikely at this stage of symptoms. If she is alive in the morning, and you want her alive in the evening, she HAS to have injected thiamine.

[Otter]

Someone way smarter then me told me to ALWAYS just treat for goat polio, whenever any teeny thing is wrong with a goat, because it is really almost like a symptom, like a fever. It doesn't matter what caused the fever, maybe something huge, maybe next to nothing, but for the fever itself you take aspirin.
Any teeny little thing can cause a hitch in the rumen's production of B1 and then that spirals into goat polio.

This is what I was told. I spend days nursing my best doe through a bout and now, if I treat for anything, I give B1 as well. If anyone looks iffy or off or gives me cause to look at them twice, they get some B-complex squirted in their mouths. It can't hurt anything and may help head something off before it spirals.

[Hollowdweller]

My guess would have been tetanus or entero.

Entero is really common in the ones that are really growing fast and eating a lot.

If she's alive when you get home it might be goat polio but if she's dead teatnus or entero.

If you gave her about 12 cc of penecillin or even better antitoxin she might live.

[Awnry Abe]

After 36 hours, it looks like the doeling's chances are improving. I went up pre-dawn and found it standing with its nose in the corner like it was being punished. It was still zombie-esque, drooling, and neurologically "not home". DW administered a B complex IM and electrolytes about every 3 hours throughout the day. With each visit, the condition of the doeling improved considerably. When I got home from work, she was up, walking, and bawling for company. One more dowsing tonight and she will have had 1/2 gal of electrolyte today. Her odds are certainly better now than when I had the gun pointed at her head yesterday but couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger.

At the end of the day, I really don't know what the illness is. I have some very sound theories from ya'll and others, but no facts. So as a learning experience of "Prevent X by Y" and "Treat X with Y", I am still short. But, I have some huge takeaways after looking at my whole goat world.

1) I need to stay true to my promise to keep on top of parasite load via learning and doing FECs.

2) I need to keep better records. (period).

3) CD/T needs to be part of the program. The "good" vet parroted your advice here. The "bad" vet said it was a pointless vaccine.

4) I need to plug my submersible water heater into a thermo-cube. I thought it had a thermostat built in--it does not. After several days of 50+ temps, I basically had bath water for drinking water, and didn't realize it. Add plain old wacked-out ruminant caused by dehydration and jostling around in the hoof trimming to the list of theories.

5) My "always on hand" list is deficient. The Tennessee Meat Goats sight pointed that out. I wish I had straight B-1 at the outset, instead of the B-complex. I can say that having the kid-tubing kit on hand is probably the #1 reason this kid still has a fighting chance. It isn't ideal for her size, but it has gotten liquid in gut. But I had it when I needed it. I need to have something bigger for the adults.

Regarding the vet, I am not too quick to discount her as idiot. She certainly knows more than us, plus she was troubleshooting over the phone using what our inexperienced eyes were telling her. I am getting her diagnosis 3rd hand from DW, and I may have put words in her mouth. The other vet, OTOH...

Oh...And DD named the doeling "Ivy". Now she *better* pull through, because she has been named by the name-giver, and named animals are part of the inner-circle around here. DD knows she is still very much in trouble.

[Backfourty,MI.]

Ivy is a perfect name & I'm so glad she's still with you. Keep treating for Polio & Listeriosis & it's not too late for her CD & T shots. Give 1 now & her booster in 3 weeks.

Some folks do not vaccinate but i do think it is needed. For the cost of the vaccine it is a small price for peace of mind in my opinion. There will never be a goat leave here or live here with out being up to date on CD & T shots.

Keeping my fingers crossed for your Ivy.

[CaliannG]

prehorserace, the site we buy our Baycox (totrizuril) for coccidia prevention and treatment, also sells Thiamine.

[Awnry Abe]

Originally Posted by CaliannG

prehorserace, the site we buy our Baycox (totrizuril) for coccidia prevention and treatment, also sells Thiamine.

Found it, thanks! Totrizil sounds like it may be useful for the rare but dreaded bout with coccidia in pullets, too. I'll have to do some reading.

[CaliannG]

I have currently used tortrizuril to successfully treat coccidia in:

Goats
Silky chickens
Puppies
Kittens

The issue with it is in slaughter, though. It has a WHAMMY of a slaughter withdrawal period (70 days). This is why it is not a good choice for, say, meat rabbits or Cornish X chickens.

[Awnry Abe]

If this goat manages to turn around, what, if anything, do I need to do to get her appetite up and her rumen working?

Also, when trimming hooves on the yearlings, I laid many of them, this doeling included, on their sides so my stablehand could keep them calm. Do you suppose this was detrimental to her rumen function and could have put her in a thiamine deficient state?

[CaliannG]

Probiotics to get her gut flora balanced. Baking soda to keep her rumen from going acidic.

That and good feed should be all that is needed to increase her appetite...although cookies always help.

It is doubtful that hoof trimming upset her rumen. Being down for a considerable period (days) will do so...but short periods will not. They DO stretch out for naps in the sunshine after all.

But other things can deplete thiamine. The coccidia bacteria feed upon thiamine, so a heavy coccidia load can deplete her. High amount of sulfites in the diet will degrade thiamine in an acidic environment (such as the rumen), leading to deficiency. (Sulfites also inhibit selenium absorption.) Low iron and/or phosphates can also lead to thiamine deficiency, as thiamine requires both of these for proper metabolic uptake.

Hormone imbalance can also cause thiamine deficiency, as once in the bloodstream, thiamine requires a protein carrier, and the release of its protein carrier is hormone controlled.

This is why I said that there are MANY things that can cause Goat Polio besides a feed problem, and that when it comes to diagnosis, one goes with the symptoms. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, one does not argue that there cannot possibly be ducks around. If the symptoms fit, that is what you treat for.

[Goat Servant]

For rumen, give her a couple of clicks of cattle probious as well as keeping up the Bcomplex until she eats well.
As for trimming hooves, it may not have had the effect being on her side for a short period of time; there is/was something else going on, just my 2 cents on that part.
Glad she appears to be pulling out of this, if it was Entereo she would have been gone within a very short time.

[Otter]

If you don't have probios on hand, yogurt works in a pinch.
My goats like strawberry, and I've always got some.