birthing question

o&itw · #1 12/26/12, 09:56 AM

Being familiar with cattle and trying to learn about sheep and goats, I am intrigued by the small birthing pens that I see people using. A cow will sometimes swing her hips when she is delivering, and it may sling the calf several feet. We would never put a cow in a small pen to calve, not wanting to get the calf bounced off a wall or a coral panel.

I take it sheep and goats are different?

bluefish · #2 12/26/12, 10:14 AM

I can't tell you much about sheep, but my goats almost always give birth laying down. Even when they stand up, they don't move much til the kid is out.

CaliannG · #3 12/26/12, 10:49 AM

Goats and sheep, if given the choice, tend to give birth laying down. They also are more people orientated than cattle. A cow may decide to halt her labor if humans are near....not so much with a sheep or a goat.

Cattle also do not seem to mind giving birth in an open field. Sheep and goats prefer a protected area, even if they are managed semi-feral. If given the choice, they will find a protected area, preferably with a nice thicket, to give birth, much like deer.

Since not all of us have nice, warm, thickets in hollows protected from the wind (and it is a pain to attempt to get into one if there are problems, to attend the birth), we make due with warm stalls layered in thick bedding.

KSALguy · #4 12/26/12, 11:01 AM

i had a spanish doe give birth in just such a thicket once, she tucked in under some fallen branches and brambles in a nice little nook just big enough for her and her twins, when done she left them in that thicket for a couple days, there was no way i was going to be able to get in there and pull them out with all the bramble and branch mess in the way, she brought them out when they were good and bouncy.

Buckhuntr · #5 12/26/12, 11:13 AM

I have a question about birthing also. Wild Child, our Pygmy doe, is due sometime around the first of March (can't count days, as she had been bred when we bought her, and the seller wasn't sure when either). DW and I have been talking about making a pen in the pole barn/shop to move the doe to when/if we notice signs of impending kidding, but it would be out of earshot of the other goats, and out of range of our hearing too. It would be completely out of the wind & on concrete floor (thick straw, of course), with electricity for a heat lamp and lights.
Other option is to leave Wild Child in the same shelter as the other 4 goats, and make a small 'cave' in the shelter for mama and the kids. This is her FF.
Which would be the best option?

Ford Zoo · #6 12/26/12, 11:18 AM

Moving her away from the herd may cause her stress before she kids. Some people wait until they are in labor or just after they kid, then move mama and kids to a stall for a few days for bonding and observation. Alot will depend of how much room you have and the behavior of all the goats.

KSALguy · #7 12/26/12, 11:23 AM

if any way possible to make a separate spot for her in the goat pen so she can be secluded but not so far away from the herd to stress her out, moveing her from the herd too soon too far away might stress her out, section off a corner of their shelter or something for her with enough room for her to move around in and you to get in and help if need be,

what was she bred too? what is her body type?

Dreamgoat Annie · #8 12/26/12, 11:45 AM

I would never put a ewe in a small pen prior to lambing. She needs room to move around, lie down, get up again, move some more, lie down again and so on to help position her lambs.

Jugs (small mothering pens) are used after lambing to promote the bonding process, especially with first-time ewes but the ewe and her lambs are moved to the jug only after the last lamb arrives. Our ewes generally lamb in a corner of their roomy night fold pen although although some prefer lambing in our yard.

Since I started with sheep, this is the procedure I use for my goats too.

Sue

Buckhuntr · #9 12/26/12, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSALguy

if any way possible to make a separate spot for her in the goat pen so she can be secluded but not so far away from the herd to stress her out, moveing her from the herd too soon too far away might stress her out, section off a corner of their shelter or something for her with enough room for her to move around in and you to get in and help if need be,

what was she bred too? what is her body type?

She was bred to a full Pygmy as well. By body type, do you mean dairy or meat? Pygmy is a meat breed, she's stocky.

KSALguy · #10 12/26/12, 11:56 AM

more how are her hips, pelvis area, is it steep slanted or more open? is she show cobby type or more angular farm type? someone better versed in pygmies should chime in but my experiance is the show type have more problems than the more open grade farm type almost regardless of what they were bred too,

Buckhuntr · #11 12/26/12, 12:03 PM

I'll have look, because I'm just not sure.

Crazy Farmgirl · #12 12/26/12, 12:04 PM

I have both cows and goats and find their desire to be secluded during birth to be the same, true many cows give birth in an open field but that is generally when there is no option to seclude themselves, goats will also if there is no sheltered area. I do have pens for birthing cows and goats and I make them in relation to the size of the animal, obviously the cow pens are bigger. I don't always pen up the cows (only if I suspect a problematic birth or freezing temps) the goats all get brought into pens to birth in cold weather but during warm weather kid in the pasture. The difference I find is with the number of cases of birthing problems and I believe that is due to the incidence of multiples born to goats being higher than cows, they tend to get tangled up in there!

MDKatie · #13 12/26/12, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamgoat Annie

I would never put a ewe in a small pen prior to lambing. She needs room to move around, lie down, get up again, move some more, lie down again and so on to help position her lambs.

I agree 100%! I really don't like to keep them in small pens (like jug sized) to kid or lamb, because sometimes they lay right up against the walls and don't know to move so the lamb/kid can come out. They definitely need room to move around. I prefer to let them lamb out in the field, but if it's raining or too cold I do have a large pen in the barn I'll put them (it's probably 10X14 or so.

o&itw · #14 12/26/12, 12:10 PM

I take it from the answers I have been getting that one lets the doe birth in a large area (inside pen) and then put her and her kid(s) in a small pen to bond? Is everyone in agreement that it is OK to have other does in the larger pen?

CaliannG · #15 12/26/12, 12:50 PM

~shakes her head~ Not really.....it depends upon the size of the "larger pen", and the individual goats.

My "Kidding out" stall is 6'x9', and I have never had a problem with does lying against the wall trying to give birth, or other such issues as that. Maybe I would if it was smaller. My does like to use the walls to rub against to position their kids while in labor.

I have a larger pen, outside of the barn, that is 50'x50'. This has a gate that goes to the pasture, and this is the pen that the herd is locked up in at night to protect them from predators. I have a small herd (only 11 goats), and I HAVE had problems with other does deciding to play "herd politics" with a doe that is in labor, harassing the poor thing while she is trying to give birth. This is why, when I notice labor has started, does go into the kidding stall.

Only very, very, very rarely will a doe want a herdmate actually THERE with her while she is giving birth... most of the time, they want a space AWAY from the herd, where they can have privacy and protection. If your "large pen" does not have enough area for the laboring doe to put a decent amount of geography between herself and the other does, you can have problems, not the least of which is trampled babies.

You will notice that people who do NOT use kidding pens allow their animals to kid or lamb in the field or pasture, which is tons of space for a doe or ewe to get away from the herd. Then they put the mother and babies in a stall, jug, pen, whatever, to bond.

Folks who pen or dry-lot their goats generally put laboring animals in the kidding pen/stall/area separate from the main herd to avoid the issues I have mentioned.

So, it depends...upon your set-up, your management, your goats.

I do have two does that prefer to kid together. Last time, they kidded at nearly the same time, both of them snuggled up in a stall in the barn, licking each others kids when I found them. (One hadn't quite finished kidding yet. If I had come a half an hour later, I wouldn't have known whose kids were whose.) However, that is a rare occurrence, and those two girls have been together, and inseparable, since a week after they were born.

Dreamgoat Annie · #16 12/26/12, 02:04 PM

I should have pointed out that ewes invariably take themselves away from the rest of the flock, even if they're all in the fold. It's a fairly large, securely fenced enclosure with Port-a-Huts and a wooden sheep-size field shelter in it. That's my clue to check to see if they're getting ready to lamb and usually they are, in which case I evict the rest of the sheep. Ewes, like does, want to give birth away from their flockmates.

Sue

Buckhuntr · #17 12/26/12, 03:42 PM

Here's Wild Child, the expectant doe.

Double H Ranch · #18 12/26/12, 04:40 PM

I personally do not lock them up seperated from the herd or in small pens. My goats get depressed easily when confined. I think it all depends on the temperament of your herd and that will vary per person...The only one I've ever found to be a problem is the buck. He may try to breed her when she is in labor... My girls are left together and choose their own seperation. That being said I once had three girls give birth at the same time.. five babies, three mommas and we never did get them seperated out right. They all cleaned and nursed all five babies until they were sold. That would have been a huge mess if they were registered. I am more apt to watch water buckets, keep them hung up so a baby doesn't get dumped in at birth and watching for bad weather than I am worried about the girls being around each other. but that is just what is best for my mellow herd...

CaliannG · #19 12/26/12, 08:02 PM

Hard to tell EXACTLY from the pictures, Buckhunter, as she is not positioned in standard, show-approved stance

, but your girl looks wide-hipped and steep-rumped.

Be sure to BE there when she kids, as if she is carrying a singleton, you may have to pull if the kid gets stuck. Otherwise, she should have kidding problems.

Frosted Mini's · #20 12/28/12, 01:55 AM

She looks to have some Nigerian in her with that color pattern-I don't think pygmies can have those face stripes or the coloring on the legs (but I know nothing about pygmies).

I have kidding pens that I put does in that are in active labor...never been a problem. They don't seem to mind, and I haven't missed a birth doing this, because I can keep the webcam on in the barn and watch from the house until they start pushing, then head out.