Cl cull or not

mcgordonsfarm · #1 12/23/12, 07:55 PM

One of my bucks had an abscess I did not see and it burst. He is penned by himself as he has problems with one of his back legs. Someone gave him to me 2 1/2 yrs ago. I haven't had any major health concerns with him until this abscess that I believe is a Cl abscess. If it is, should I, I hate this term, but, destroy him, or can I keep him separated as he already is and disinfect his pen with lime and bleach. I have 5 other goats and I understand it is contagious to humans as well, and I have a 6 month old baby in my household. Best course of action please.

harvestmoonfarm · #2 12/23/12, 08:21 PM

I had a doe turn up with an abscess a couple of years ago and, before it had a chance to burst, my husband shot and killed her. I didn't have any testing done and wasn't willing to take a chance. I know it's not for everyone, but it just wasn't worth the risk. So sorry you're going through this

Ford Zoo · #3 12/23/12, 08:25 PM

Where is the abcess? There are many things that cause abcesses. Keep him quarantined and get him tested. Culturing the abcess drainage is most definitive. Until you know for sure, try to keep the others protected with steps like feeding him after you do chores with the others. If he does come back positive, you still should test your others.

I'm sorry about this. It brings about some heavy feelings and big decisions,but he may be OK!

Sparkie · #4 12/23/12, 08:32 PM

Don't feel bad about mentioning putting him down. If you have livestock that WILL happen eventually, best get used to the idea.

You need to get him tested to make sure exactly what you're dealing with. Then make your decision when you have the facts.

I for one would not keep a goat with cl on my place and risk the others getting it. No way, not worth the risk.

mcgordonsfarm · #5 12/23/12, 08:33 PM

The abscess is behind his jaw under his ear. I can't get a vet out here until after Christmas so if I take precaution with going into his pen, not tracking his soil into my other pens will I be okay until the vet comes to have him tested, or put down?

BoerMomma · #6 12/23/12, 08:34 PM

I would test him before making that decision!

Alice In TX/MO · #7 12/23/12, 09:05 PM

Yes, take precautions, have separate boots for going in his pen. Get him tested. But.... don't they have to have an active abscess to test?

Cyngbaeld · #8 12/23/12, 09:24 PM

Since he already has issues with legs, and since it can be hard to keep goats separated, I would probably go ahead and cull now. I figure an abscess usually means a poor immune system and I don't like keeping animals around with poor immune systems.

Ford Zoo · #9 12/23/12, 09:30 PM

Just another option, you can save vet money by drawing your own blood to send in for CL testing. I use PAV labs http://www.pavlab.com/ . I know there are labs that will culture abcesses, but I can't find the link right now. You will need fresh drainage for that.

In my experience, a vet that isn't expereinced in goats may not be able to give good info, and without testing some will overlook or downplay CL as a normal wound abcess.

CaliannG · #10 12/23/12, 09:58 PM

If you are careful, most certainly you can keep him from contaminating your other areas...although I must warn you that you need to go on a goat barn/goat shed/common area, etc. cleaning SPREE with lots of bleach. CL positive goats can shed the bacteria in their feces if they have internal abscesses that burst.

You will probably need to go ahead and get your whole herd tested. There is no need to put him down if the rest of your herd is positive, as he won't be able to infect anyone, and you will have to considerably change your management to work towards achieving a clean herd.

And if what he had was an abscess because a splinter got lodged there while he was rubbing on a fence, it would be silly to cull him for that too.

Test. Be careful about tracking in and out of his pen, but test first and foremost.

Once you test, then decide on the right track to take. I, myself, would not keep a positive animal. However, I know the health status of the rest of my herd as well, so I am risking the health of all by keeping one.

southerngurl · #11 12/23/12, 10:17 PM

I just wouldn't trust that pen at all even after liming etc. You just don't want to let those things burst.

where I want to · #12 12/23/12, 10:52 PM

Well- here I go down the CL path again.
You can't tell a CL abscess by looking at it. Even a vet can't. Although it might be highly suspicious, you just can't tell by looking. If it odiferious, it's probably not CL.
If the abscess still has pus, that can be taken to the vet to culture. If it shows no coryne pseudotubuculosis, then it's ok. If it shows some other infectious agent, then it might be outside contamination since it's already exposed by being open but CL bacteria are not all over the place or at least shouldn't be.
One of the problems with putting him down without testing is that you will not know if there is CL exposure to your other goats or not- what if one of them develops an abscess? Abscesses can happen for lots of other reasons than CL.
I had a CL goat living with others before I discovered her problem. No abscess ever discharged in any area that the goats lived. None other than that goat and her daughter that she had right after I found out about the infection ever testerd positive or showed any sign.
It is not that contagious to people but I would certainly be careful in handling any abscess until I knew what the infectious agent was. Latex or vinyal gloves and burn any clean up paper towels and such. Such a young child should not be exposed as their immune systems are not well developed yet.
I would not ever keep a CL positive animal due to the horrific experience I had. But I would not destroy an animal on suspicion. But you will hear lots of extreme remarks and untrue "facts" thrown around. Best to be really informed by authoritative sources.

noeskimo · #13 12/24/12, 01:15 AM

Tennesseemeatgoats.com goat husbandry has some very detailed directions for containment of abscess problems, using Formalin. I don't understand, now, why anyone would destroy a goat that they liked for CL, unless they don't believe in vaccinations, or were unwilling, for one reason or another, to vaccinate against it. Mine are, and it's wonderful to know that I will never have to worry about it. Never had it, never will. There are always better disinfectants than bleach. Bleach will not work if there is any biological material present. Area must be 100% clean for bleach to kill the bad guys

Alice In TX/MO · #14 12/24/12, 05:53 AM

Formalin only affects the individual abscess being treated. It does NOTHING to treat systemic CL. I wish that info would NOT be posted as treatment, because it IS NOT.

It is comparable to putting Clearasil on ONE pimple when your whole face is broken out.

Sparkie · #15 12/24/12, 06:35 AM

And Formalin is formaldehyde - horrible and unhealthy to work with and you have to actually inject it into each individual abscess at the right time in development. No thanks. And the goat could still have internal abscesses.

Alice In TX/MO · #16 12/24/12, 07:00 AM

Exactly right, Sparkie.

southerngurl · #17 12/24/12, 08:17 AM

Quote:

And Formalin is formaldehyde - horrible and unhealthy to work with and you have to actually inject it into each individual abscess at the right time in development. No thanks. And the goat could still have internal abscesses.

Yes, AND your goats will always test positive for CL now. So a lot of people won't buy from you even if they like you and your goats. I can see why people would vaccinate (with the new vaccine) but I just won't, at least not yet. It will be a long time before I consider it. I'll let others be guinea pigs in the meantime I think.

Alice In TX/MO · #18 12/24/12, 08:24 AM

Southerngurl.... what do you mean his goats will test positive?? He hasn't tested yet, he hasn't vaccinated..... there is no reason *at this time* to make that prediction.

**mygoat** · #19 12/24/12, 09:02 AM

What would I do?

Definitively, I would CULL. No ifs, ands, or butts. That location is VERY suspicious. It is a difficult to control disease and the animal does not sound high quality enough to keep it around, IMO. I would evaluate that first. Do you really NEED this animal around? If not, cull. Then sample.

UNLESS the animal is pivotal to your breeding program, I wouldn't wait for test results. I WOULD STILL TEST the animal - blood being MUCH LESS helpful than a culture - to understand infection routes to other livestock/humans if need be. I'd burn the carcass.

One he's put down, see about opening that abscess and getting a sample. I'd shave the area if possible, and open up the abscess. Might want someone else to help you to hold it open while you carefully only swab the inside. Get the pus if you can. You want to be pretty sterile - possibly talk to a vet about picking up a sterile swab to use, and send it to a diagnostic center that does bacteriology. Or, if you have a sterile swab/tongue depressor, you can scrape out some contents and put them into a red top blood tube. I'd burn the carcass.

southerngurl · #20 12/24/12, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

Southerngurl.... what do you mean his goats will test positive?? He hasn't tested yet, he hasn't vaccinated..... there is no reason *at this time* to make that prediction.

Sorry for the confusion, I was adding to y'all response to noeskimo.