Goat ulcer, and then Johnnes, again

Ford Zoo · #1 12/20/12, 04:51 PM

I guess this post is 2 fold and I’ll try to keep it short.
In 2007 my daughter bought me 2 weanling ND does from a woman (I’ll call her Kim). I knew nothing about goats or testing, but Kim ran a small closed herd and had bought her goats from a trusted & tested herd. She and I became great friends. Over the years I found this site and learned more about testing. Still, I did not test these girls as they were pets and came from a negative herd. In 2008, Kim purchased a new young buckling I’ll call ‘bucky’. We kept him for the month of December in 2008 and 2009 to breed our girls. We kept one doeling each spring, then lost one of the original girls, leaving us with three this past spring.
We started adding new goats to our herd this year and have been testing them as they come in, but have not tested our original girls. So far, so good.
Several weeks ago Kim called to say she lost Bucky suddenly: Cow pies one day so she wormed. Within a few days he had goat berries. Then she found him unable to stand. I’ll leave out all the details, but he passed within hours. The verbal report on the post exam was that he had succumbed to a ruptured ulcer somewhere in the digestive track, and that a culture showed Johnnes was “present”! We are awaiting the written report so that we have all the details. She has decided not to breed her remaining buck with her does this year and just keep them until they pass of old age.
I am sad for my friend’s loss, but am also fretting over the future of my growing herd, and I still have to tell another friend that bought 4 kids from me 2 years ago. Bucky has not been here for 3 years now (note that after Kim got him, he was never exposed to any other goats other than her herd and my 2). When he was here, he would have been about 1 year old the first year, and just under 2 years old the second year, the ground was frozen, but he had a bad habit of pooping in the heated water bucket. He would have been 5 yrs old in a few months.
He must have come to her herd positive, and she and I have a lot of studying to do to know more about this disease. I’m hoping that he was not shedding it at the young age that he was when he was here.
Aside from all this, has anyone heard of ulcers in goats?
Sorry about the long post, but this whole thing is really eating me up today! Everyone says test, test, test! I see why now!

CaliannG · #2 12/20/12, 05:04 PM

Ugh, Fordy! What horrible, horrible news!

Johne's disease does cause ulcers in the digestive tract, specifically called Ulcerative colitis. It is one of the many "types" of symptoms Johne's can take.

I am so sorry such terrible news has descended upon you! I hope everything turns out okay and your girls are as clean and pristine as vestal virgins!

**mygoat** · #3 12/20/12, 05:06 PM

More info on that culture needed. MAP culture takes WEEKS (42 days for regular culture). They can turn positive before that, but will be ran that long unless they are excellerated. I'd always request PCR confirmation to be sure that a positive culture isn't a false positive - usually the lab would be able to tell the difference, but assurance is always nice.

A PCR test could be done looking for MAP DNA - that could be back within a few days. A Blood ELISA test could be back within a few days as well.

Johnes DOES cause lesions in the intestine that are distinctive. Essentially causes a thickening of the intestinal wall so that it is almost like one huge callous. VERY distinctive.

Here is info on Entero and it's lesions it causes - I would think this to be the most likely cause of death with no more info... http://www.aces.edu/pubs/docs/U/UNP-0089/UNP-0089.pdf

Mercks vet manual on abomasal ulcers : http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in...m/bc/21803.htm

IMO, the symptoms that the buck had do not sound like Johnes. That doesn't mean he couldn't HAVE Johnes as well as die from Entero - but more info is needed. Don't freak yet.

If you're worried, I'd send off for fecal culture at a reputable lab. I know DCPAH does PCR confirmation on all positives - and if you get the high sensitivity test they will do a PCR on all samples irregardless of if they come out positive or negative...

Minelson · #4 12/20/12, 05:51 PM

Oh Ford Zoo...you know my story. Let me digest this, I have to run outside for a bit but I will be back to help you through this. (((hugs)))

Minelson · #5 12/20/12, 07:07 PM

Ok...I know that Gretta had an ulcer or abcess deep in her throat. I don't know if it was from Johne's or was secondary. I think that the "whatever" was in her throat was the main problem. I have to admit that even with 3 tests that came back positive for Johnes...I still question it somewhere deep inside. Mostly because of what Vicki said over on the DGI forum. She has no confidence in the Johnes testing and said that I needed to find out what the "real" problem was and address that and then re-test and it would probably come back negative. That haunts me. Because then I second guess whether my property is contaminated now. It's very frustrating so I'm just going to play it safe and assume it is.
If I were in your position I would go ahead and do the testing that Mygoat recommends. Get a fecal and have a culture grown from it and then do PCR. I had one vet tell me that PCR can find a needle in a haystack. That makes me wonder if a gazzillion goats are carrying the Johnes bacteria and only some succumb to the misery of it. I wonder if more are coming back as positive that we are aware of.
I am so sorry you are going through this. It's a tough question with not a clear cut answer. All you can do is test...wait and worry....and go from there. ((((hugs)))

Backfourty,MI. · #6 12/21/12, 06:28 AM

I agree wit Mygoat, Don't freak yet. Get your girls tested & hoping they come back clean as a whistle. I'll keep my fingers & toes crossed too! Hugs to you Ford Zoo, I'd be stressing too.

dbarjacres · #7 12/21/12, 08:41 AM

Minelson...don't take Vicki's word. She has some good knowledge but she is not a vet nor is she someone that runs these tests. She'll say something one year and the next is totally different. Example...soy...soy was soooo evil in her mind and anyone that fed it was terrible and now I see all her goats get soy daily. You did the right thing. You tried all you could.

Ford Zoo · #8 12/21/12, 09:59 AM

Thanks for all the support and guidance on this. It's going to weigh heavy until I get results back. I'll be sharing the info with my friend so we can work on this together.

Sherry in Iowa · #9 12/21/12, 10:03 AM

Wishing you and your goaties the absolute best Fordy.

**mygoat** · #10 12/21/12, 10:05 AM

To be honest, I didn't agree with much Vicki had to say on Johnes. I work at a diagnostic center, and much of her info is old info. Years ago, it was hard to test for and tests were more unreliable. Today, though, they're about as reliable as ANY bacterial culture can be. Especially with PCR confirmation. Most if not all positives are also prepared as a smear and looked at under the microscope too, for visual confirmation of a mycobacterium growth. So, with proper inhibited culture growth (indicating that the individual is shedding live MAP bacterium) examination under microscope, AND PCR confirmation...

Frosted Mini's · #11 12/21/12, 04:46 PM

A vet from Caine Teaching Center in Idaho (a food animal veterinary research center that does a lot of work with small ruminants and is associated with UI and WSU), gave a talk on Johnes. He is actually doing research on the disease with goats. He has been working with several herds of sheep and goats to help them clean up. He gave a talk at this year's ADGA Convention. I cannot remember his name, but he seemed like a very nice guy, and I would very much recommend calling him to both the OP and Minelson.

The things that stood out the most to me were:

-Animals are generally infected as very young babies, adults are less susceptible. There is the possibility of becoming infected in utero (as a fetus).
-Goats who have the disease generally die young...usually as 2 or 3 year olds, I think was what they said, but they can die as yearlings if infected in utero.
-Goats shed very few organisms in their feces...like 1 bacteria per Gram of feces. Cows shed huge huge amounts.
-Because of the low number of organisms shed, it is difficult to find.
-It builds up in the environment.
-Freezing does not kill it-in fact, that is how they culture it in the lab-freeze first to release the organism from the fecal matter.

I really do hope you guys can call this guy for more info; he is an expert in the field after all.

The Tin Mom · #12 12/21/12, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Backfourty,MI.

I agree wit Mygoat, Don't freak yet. Get your girls tested & hoping they come back clean as a whistle. I'll keep my fingers & toes crossed too! Hugs to you Ford Zoo, I'd be stressing too.

Oh, Ford Zoo! So very sorry to hear this! I agree to test. Fingers and toes crossed here as well! Please keep us updated! (((((hugs)))))

Lizza · #13 12/21/12, 06:50 PM

I am so sorry but don't worry too much just yet, get them tested and go from there. I would work with a vet on this.

As to Vicky, I totally agree with the others. Over the years it has seemed that she puts way too much faith in old wives tales (and herself) and when she posted here use to write that she knew more then most (seemed like any) Veterinarian. I suppose I have always taken issue with that, while she is knowledgeable and experienced, that does not make her more knowledgeable then Veterinarians or Universities on something like this. Full disclosure, my daughter is a pre-vet student at a University, so I am biased. Minnelson, you did absolutely everything right and you did everything you could.

Minelson · #14 12/21/12, 08:10 PM

I'm in Minneapolis right now and finally got on line and I'm so heart warmed to see these posts. Thank you for helping me re-think things. It's going to take a lot of re-thinking before I find peace with this. Vicki was HUGE when I first found this forum and I was star eyed over the info she would share. I truly believe in her wealth of info but I can see now that I need to remain open to new ideas. Thank you all for the support for me and Ford Zoo. Just the fact that we are talking about Johnes is huge. In the past, it seems like there has been a stigma attached to it. It's good to get it out in the open so we can learn and replace fear with knowledge.

CaliannG · #15 12/21/12, 09:24 PM

You are absolutely right, Min, that there has not been near enough talking about Johne's Disease.

You know, I think the ONLY reason I started testing for Johne's years back was because the lab I used offered a "Complete BioScreen" for a couple of years, and that just happened to be one of the tests they did in it? For two or three years (it's been a while) they had a reduced rate for the BioScreen, so I always got it. When they quite offering it, I just added Johne's to the list of individual tests because, by that time, I was used to getting it.

Back then, I knew two things about Johne's: It was incurable and it killed goats. That's it.

About two years ago, a couple of the cattle people down her started talking about it, so I looked up more information on it. That's when I learned about its cause, how it affected the animal, and the link to Crohn's Disease.

Even then, though, I didn't delve too deeply into it, because I knew my girls didn't have it, it had never been on my property, and it wasn't an issue for me. It was just more of a thing of "Well, MY raw milk is safe." and no more.

Then Gretta got sick, and I nose-dived into every article and study I could find on the disease. My poor SIL, who is a Linguist and History professor, was pressed into service translating studies from French for me, and my BIL, a PhD in mathematics and computer science, was begged to find analysis on it for me, and mega-analysis if he could.

And I read....and read....and read...and read....I read up on Crohn's too, and how the disease is handled in humans (we obviously don't cull people), and I read some more.

I now feel that I am fairly conversant on the subject of Johne's Disease. I also feel that, if caught before the immune system goes into over-drive, that the disease could be cured, with a lot of effort, in individual animals....and that it could be eradicated with proper testing and culling, as well as rotational pastures, in commercial herds.

But, it would take work. And I am discouraged by the fact that there are so many that won't even bother eradicating CL and CAE, and we KNOW it is possible to do so!

It is a bacterial disease. Not something to fear, but something to work towards removing from our herds.

Minelson · #16 12/21/12, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG

You are absolutely right, Min, that there has not been near enough talking about Johne's Disease.

You know, I think the ONLY reason I started testing for Johne's years back was because the lab I used offered a "Complete BioScreen" for a couple of years, and that just happened to be one of the tests they did in it? For two or three years (it's been a while) they had a reduced rate for the BioScreen, so I always got it. When they quite offering it, I just added Johne's to the list of individual tests because, by that time, I was used to getting it.

Back then, I knew two things about Johne's: It was incurable and it killed goats. That's it.

About two years ago, a couple of the cattle people down her started talking about it, so I looked up more information on it. That's when I learned about its cause, how it affected the animal, and the link to Crohn's Disease.

Even then, though, I didn't delve too deeply into it, because I knew my girls didn't have it, it had never been on my property, and it wasn't an issue for me. It was just more of a thing of "Well, MY raw milk is safe." and no more.

Then Gretta got sick, and I nose-dived into every article and study I could find on the disease. My poor SIL, who is a Linguist and History professor, was pressed into service translating studies from French for me, and my BIL, a PhD in mathematics and computer science, was begged to find analysis on it for me, and mega-analysis if he could.

And I read....and read....and read...and read....I read up on Crohn's too, and how the disease is handled in humans (we obviously don't cull people), and I read some more.

I now feel that I am fairly conversant on the subject of Johne's Disease. I also feel that, if caught before the immune system goes into over-drive, that the disease could be cured, with a lot of effort, in individual animals....and that it could be eradicated with proper testing and culling, as well as rotational pastures, in commercial herds.

But, it would take work. And I am discouraged by the fact that there are so many that won't even bother eradicating CL and CAE, and we KNOW it is possible to do so!

It is a bacterial disease. Not something to fear, but something to work towards removing from our herds.

That means that Gretta did not die in vain

CaliannG · #17 12/21/12, 11:24 PM

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