Recommendations on a LGD

SweetSong6 · #1 12/02/12, 09:44 PM

Good evening ladies (and gentlemen),

We had a particularly disturbing incident at our farm involving our goats and some roaming dogs over the weekend. Thankfully, I was home and the goats were not physically harmed. The dogs were not so fortunate. My girls are still a little shaken up almost 72 hours later. They're getting lots of love and attention from us and hopefully will be back to normal soon.

Now for my question. We've been discussing adding a LGD since acquiring goats, and it seems that it is definitely in order now. Which breed is best? There are some Pyrenees/Anatolian/Australian crosses on CL now. Does anyone know anything about that cross? Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

CaliannG · #2 12/02/12, 09:55 PM

Everyone is going to chime in with their favorites.

Mine is the Anatolian.

I have a Kangal-type Anatolian. They are long legged, fast, with medium coats (with ANY LDG, there will be tons and tons of shedding. Resistance is futile.).

Great Pyrs, Marammas, Kuvosz, the long-coated white breeds, are "guarders". They stay with their flock, and if something attacks their flock, they attack it. They are mastiff-types, so they do not tend to be very energetic. This can be good and bad. Good, because they are always with the flock; bad, because coyote and wolf packs have figured out how to tire them out, then attack them in a group.

Anatolians, the Kangal types, are "hunters". Their job is the pre-emptive strike. They will patrol *around* where their flock is, and flush out any predators that might be considering the idea of goat for dinner. They are built to be fast so that they can outrun and kill a predator that might be a threat.

I've seen my Anatolian outrun a coyote, catch it, and turn it into bloody coyote shreds. It is not a sight for the faint of tummy.

The different kinds of LGDs each have good points and bad points. Kangal types tend to bond more with people as well as their livestock than the White long-haired.

One thing I have noticed that is particular to the Kangals is the "flock call bark". I haven't seen or heard of this phenomenon with other LGDs. Kangals have a sort of bark that must resonate in the goat and sheep instinctive brains, because even those that are scared to bejeebers of ALL dogs will hear that bark, and instantly go running.....to the Kangal. They group up behind him, facing whatever direction the Kangal is facing when that bark is let loose.

It doesn't sound any different than any other bark to ME, but sheep and goats can tell the difference.

thaiblue12 · #3 12/02/12, 10:01 PM

I would pass,the Aussie makes them a non-stable LGD who may herd and nip at your girls.

You can get a mix of LGD I have Anatolian/Pyrenees, but I would not add a herding, hunting, whatever happened to wander by and impregnate their dog mix.

Any dog/puppy you get will need training and your goats will need to get use to it especially since they had a run in with dogs recently. Some of my does butt the dogs and I like it and it teaches them to respect the goats space.

A puppy will not be big enough to do much for the first 5 months so keep that in mind, but if you have kids I would get a puppy before an adult.

Chickens can also pose a problem with the young dogs and you will have to make sure the dog cannot get to them.

Pure Pyrs tend to bark a lot so if you cannot handle that I would not get one, I cannot handle it

Otter · #4 12/02/12, 10:03 PM

Don't get a cross, especially a cross with any herding breed, as common as they are. The parents have a completely different set of instincts and the puppies could get either, neither, or a combination. A combination can be the worst. People will tell you that an LGD has no prey drive. This is false. If something comes into an LGD's territory, they kill it. They just bond with the flock like pack members, and pack members are allowed to be there. In a cross that can lead to ... bad things.

Great Pyrenees made me hate LGDs. And I am a dog lover of epic proportions. Like work in rescue, train professionally kind of love, and the sight of a Pyr not in it's yard makes me run for my rifle. Which I hate, but my dog has been attacked in my own yard and my cat was killed in my driveway, because Pyrs roam, it's just what they do.
They also bark All Night Long.
All night.
Every night.

So you couldn't give me one with a solid gold collar and a lifetime supply of kibble. My apologies to all Pyr lovers out there.

Having been around them and lived near them, an Anatolian is another story. They seem to stay home a lot better, there's nowhere NEAR the amount of barking - if I hear my neighbor's Anatolian bark, there is something wrong, I go check. And, I've never had one take a snap at me, which I can not say for other LGD breeds.

I am not an LGD fan, but the more of them I meet, the more I think that a spayed female Anatolian is the way to go. Why a spayed female? Well, I don't want an intact anything, and an intact male WILL let females in season onto your property and he WILL leave your property to go after them (no one is breeding those Pyrenees/Anatolian/Australian mixes on purpose) and I've noticed that they are more likely to roam and more likely to be tolerant of female dogs not in season, even once you get them fixed.
And a female either will need to be locked away (and therefore not working) when she's in heat, or she'll be letting males into the pasture (and therefore not working), and surprising you with the neighbor's Aussie's puppies. But spaying takes care of all that, and the females are far less tolerant of all other dogs, while seeming more likely to let barn cats live, and more territorial, so more likely to stay home.

CaliannG · #5 12/02/12, 10:13 PM

~smiles~ Mine is a neutered male....and he doesn't like the neighborhood dogs. He doesn't care if they are male, female or somewhere in between, he does not want them near his goats.

I do agree that mine does not bark all freaking night like the neighbor's Pyr. He does bark, and it is not ALWAYS something important (mine HATES jack brakes on semis...I don't know why, but if a semi uses jack brakes near here, he loses his ever-loving mind and barks his head off.), but it is NOT at the intensity and consistency of a Pyr.

SweetSong6 · #6 12/02/12, 10:21 PM

CaliannG, I actually like the looks and energy level of an Anatolian over a Pyrenees. I do, however, have some reservations about having one in my situation. You can set me straight if needed. We have chickens (laying hens in a coop and a couple really annoying free range roosters), barn cats, and small children. Our house/farm can sometimes resemble Grand Central Station with all the people (strangers to a LGD) going and coming. A large number of these "strangers" will be children. I have heard that since an Anatolian does bond with its goats and people it can be VERY protective. But then again, I'm not judging from experience with an actual dog. More advice please.

Thaiblue, thanks for the advice. I love Aussies. One of our inside dogs is an Aussie cross, but I was afraid that the herding instinct would not be a good mix with the goats. I have a friend with a large meat goat herd that also recommends the Anatolian/Pyrenees.

Otter · #7 12/02/12, 10:22 PM

Caliann, nothing barks like a Pyr. And this is coming from a beagle owner.

Bearfootfarm · #8 12/02/12, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

LGD SEMINAR

Livestock Guardian Dogs

ShadowfaxFarm · #9 12/03/12, 12:37 AM

I grew up with purebred Pyrs and LOVE LOVE LOVE them...I personally love their bark too because it's very comforting to me. However we never had near neighbors. THey are big loveable loyal dogs and are very gentle with people, kittens, and even chickens although occasionally a young pyr will chase birds & kill them. Having said that though I currently have a male Anatolian and a female Anatolian/pyr mix. My husband wanted something more aggressive then a pyr. Our male is super sweet but we had to go through some dominance training. He is teaching me a lot about handling a different type of guard dog. There have been a couple of times he has not let people out of their vehicles until I get out there. He doesn't try to get them (bite them) but he is a very verbal/pushy dog & is much more intimidating then a pyr. He also sticks pretty close to the farm. My female is much more docile but runs the property patrolling and always on alert. I'm starting to really like the Anatolians.

Frosted Mini's · #10 12/03/12, 01:50 AM

Does anybody here have a Maremma (sp?)?

CaliannG · #11 12/03/12, 09:12 AM

Sweetsong, mine is a cat atheist, he doesn't believe in the existence of cats (although he sometimes believes in the existence of cat FOOD). He has never bothered any of the cats.

He has also never bothered any of the chickens, except to gently nudge some half grown silkies into my DH's hands when they got out of their brooder cages.

He has never bit a stranger, either adult or child. He will sometimes bark at strangers, but I tell them to just stand still for a moment, and he sniffs them over and then leaves them alone. He loves children. If someone wanted to steal every bit of livestock on my place, all they would have to do is send in a child to lead the critters out, and all that child would suffer would be the occasional lick.

Actually, the "child" part extends to baby-other-animals. I hope none of the neighbors gets a goat-chasing or chicken-killing chihuahua, because my Anatolian considers the "toy" breeds to be puppies, and just gently pushes them off the property. He'll tear into an adult lab, or a possom, coon, etc., but something like a Bichon Fris is completely safe around him. I think he knows the difference between a critter that is a threat to his stock and one that is not.

I've honestly never had a problem with him in any area. I've had Pyrs, Kuvosz, etc., and so far, my absolute favorite is the Kangal type Anatolian.

hiddensprings · #12 12/03/12, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SweetSong6

CaliannG, I actually like the looks and energy level of an Anatolian over a Pyrenees. I do, however, have some reservations about having one in my situation. You can set me straight if needed. We have chickens (laying hens in a coop and a couple really annoying free range roosters), barn cats, and small children. Our house/farm can sometimes resemble Grand Central Station with all the people (strangers to a LGD) going and coming. A large number of these "strangers" will be children. I have heard that since an Anatolian does bond with its goats and people it can be VERY protective. But then again, I'm not judging from experience with an actual dog. More advice please.

You can break an Antolian to poultry with a little training. My female likes to lay in the garden and I have pictures of my free-range chickens all around her. And you can have them understand that the barn cats are not a threat to their goats. I've had Anatolians for several years now and honestly, I trust them around children; my 5 year old grandson thinks that my big male is the BOMB. And, Trooper, handles the love just fine. My dogs are barkers when someone drives down the driveway but watch to see who is getting out of the car. If it is a family with children, they seem to relax. If it is a group of men, I have to tell them to be quiet.
They are roamers so strong fencing is a MUST to keep them home or they will guardyour property as well as the neighbors and the other neighbors. Fine if you have neighbors who don't mind, NOT good if neighbors don't want uninvited guest.

Bearfootfarm · #13 12/03/12, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frosted Mini's

Does anybody here have a Maremma (sp?)?

I have owned as many as 6 at once.
They are wonderful dogs and excellent protectors.

SweetSong6 · #14 12/03/12, 05:00 PM

Love the picture your words painted, CaliannG! They made me smile then laugh! I'm leaning toward an Anatolian.

Thanks to everyone for your input. Y'all are awesome.

Barn Yarns · #15 12/03/12, 06:22 PM

I have a Maremma too. He is AWESOME! He has been here for 4 years now. I did neuter him a bit over a year ago, tho.

My next one will be a LGD from either Lovetree Farm(wi) or Tamarack Lamb and Wool(mn). both have awesome dogs that fit their programs well. they are of Spanish Ranch Mastiff, Maremma, and Polish Tatra. When I did my research, i came down to the Tatra and the Maremma. I found my Maremma before I found the above shepardesses.

I will echo the above responses of that cross you found on craigslist. a LGD mixed with a hearding dog really is a bad mix. I have seen that comment made by many people that have been involved with LGD's a whole lot longer than myself.

Double H Ranch · #16 12/04/12, 06:35 AM

Hi, we have Pyr/Newfie cross. We like the cross because Pyrs covered a little too much territory for us and the Newfie tends to be more home bound. They are big dogs 145lbs. awesome with family and livestock, not so much with chickens.(they think chickens are squeaky toys) intimidating to strangers and deadly to predators. This is a first time mom, had her baby outside the barn.She couldn't stand at first and if it wasn't for his barking I'd of been too late, it was below freezing that day.

Recommendations on a LGD - Goats

bwanaswan · #17 12/04/12, 03:29 PM

My Great Pyr wound up being mostly a pet and that was mostly my doing. He is good with the goats and sheep but is a spoiled brat. And thats OK he is the nicest gentlest dog I have ever had around anything.

But back to topic. My best watch dog is a Mini Donkey (Gelded). Brewski is by far the best guard animal I have ever had and outside of a little braying at the moon he is sooooooooooo easy to take care of and have around.

Hollowdweller · #18 12/04/12, 03:57 PM

I think it's important to make sure your dog can't get out.

Probably 75% of the people I know who have got LGD's of various breeds have been unable to keep them in.

I also think that getting them young is important.

My current one is a PYR and he's great, but I got him the youngest and took the greatest pains to train him.

First I got him when I had bottle babies. During the day when I was at work I had him in a stock panel cage in the barn, where he couldn't get out and could be with the adult does but they couldn't beat him up.

When we got home we'd move him into the kid pen where he could be with some kids his size but if he got rough we'd be there to correct him.

The kid pen had poly netting so he really learned to stay in.

But seems like a lot of times I see pups when there's no kids to put them with, or they have them for sale well past when I'd want one.

Hollowdweller · #19 12/04/12, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Double H Ranch

They are big dogs 145lbs. awesome with family and livestock, not so much with chickens.(they think chickens are squeaky toys)

My current Pyr when he was an adolescent would pick up chickens and ducks and carry them around. Then he would set them down and they would waddle off. Never hurt any. Was the weirdest thing.

Now when a doe is in heat he will follow them around and put his head on top of their back like he's using it as a head rest.

He thinks he's a goat and he realizes there's something he's supposed to be doing but he's not sure what

Double H Ranch · #20 12/05/12, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hollowdweller

My current Pyr when he was an adolescent would pick up chickens and ducks and carry them around. Then he would set them down and they would waddle off. Never hurt any. Was the weirdest thing.

Now when a doe is in heat he will follow them around and put his head on top of their back like he's using it as a head rest.

He thinks he's a goat and he realizes there's something he's supposed to be doing but he's not sure what

Or they eat hay like it was their favorite meal....crazy dogs. We released quail on our place once to keep down the bugs, every so often I'd see a pair of bright orange feet sticking out of the dogs faces so I'd run over wrestle their mouth open and pull out a slobbery wet bird, set it on the porch until it could dry off and fly away. My chickens were never so lucky though. Just too much fun to hear them squawk. oh well, there is always a trade off. =)