Could I get some parasite help, please?

[PrettyPaisley]

My goat partner friend in crime and I share a buck that she keeps at her place when I'm not breeding mine. We got him this past January and I brought him over about 3 weeks ago. He had some slight scours that we figured would clear up-and they sort of did. We attributed it to her herbal wormer schedule. She refuses conventional wormers.

Well after he had been here about 3 days I introduced Chaffhaye to the crew and he got way too much the first night. Not really sure what I was thinking, other than I would feed them enough for them all to get some-but it seems the girls didn't care for it and he ended up eating the majority of it.

So still, about a week later, we are still fighting scours. I've done Pepto, yellow mustard (the guy at Southern States told me to use that) and it helped get things more solid but we still weren't at the berry stage again. SO was out there yesterday morning and on a hunch checked his eyelids. He is pale. Really pale. So I ran down there and dosed him with Cydectin (orally), gave him Red Cell (I know not to use that all the time but read that Geritol, while cheaper, has alcohol) and a vitamin B shot. I had been giving him vitamin B because he looked like he wasn't feeling too well, and I drenched him with some standard goat drench for energy. I thought he was just suffering from a belly ache but clearly I was mistaken.

He will nibble a bit from my hand and has the strength to still be upright and will trot away when he sees me coming but I'm still worried. I cannot let this fellow die. I lost a FF a couple of weeks ago to parasites and a buckling back in the spring.

I figure he was fighting parasites pretty well with the herbal stuff but when he got into the Chaffhaye he got down enough for them to take hold.

What can I do to keep this guy alive?

[mygoat]

Fecal sample.

If he's co-owned and the herbal wormer isn't working, it is time to up your game if you want to save him, simple as that. As a co-owner, insist on doing what needs to be done. Obviously, the herbal wormers ARE NOT WORKING if he has a worm load.

I'm totally unconvinced herbal wormers are a cure all - far from. I've never been convinced they're effective TREATMENTS... and often not effective preventatives, either - from what I've seen in other 'all natural' herds. I know many herds that do NO conventional treatments... and they're constantly doing *something* to their smaller herd of goats. Mine do fine with minimal intrusions and grow like crazy and are healthy as heck. IF it works, great - if not, change what you're doing in some fashion to get better results. Doesn't necessarily mean conventional, but it still means you need to do something different.

What is his temp? Eye membrane color?

[PrettyPaisley]

I'll get his temp when I head to the barn here shortly. His eye membrane is pale. Not as pale as I've seen before but way more pale than I am comfy with. I was able to spot a couple of red veins in his lids but the overall color is pale.

When I took a fecal sample from my buckling I was underwhelmed with the response of the vet. They sent me home with something for coccidia-something I only recall thinking wouldn't impress you guys here on this forum. And the vet acted like I was crazy to use Cydectin at all-saying it was very uneffective.

[mygoat]

Well, if the vet can get you what species of worms/parasites you're working with, you can handle the rest without his help. Just nod your head and say OK...

[Backfourty,MI.]

I agree with Mygoat. Sounds like you need a fecal done for your buck ASAP & then worm according to the parasite. I think I would also get fecals done for your does' too just to make sure what your doing is working for them.

With the over eating of the chaffhaye you might want to get some baking soda down him as well. Do you & the co-owner do CD & T's & is he up to date on his vaccinations?

[Alice In TX/MO]

He didn't have a sudden worm response to the chaffhay. He was wormy when he arrived at your place.

Tell the vet you need an egg count and to know what kind of worm eggs they are.

[PrettyPaisley]

Originally Posted by Backfourty,MI.

I agree with Mygoat. Sounds like you need a fecal done for your buck ASAP & then worm according to the parasite. I think I would also get fecals done for your does' too just to make sure what your doing is working for them.

With the over eating of the chaffhaye you might want to get some baking soda down him as well. Do you & the co-owner do CD & T's & is he up to date on his vaccinations?

They always have access to baking soda and minerals. The Righ now Oynx.
I vaxed my first two goats then read more about vaxing goats and between what I read and what the vet said I decided to stop that. From what I understand vaxing goats isn't any more effective than vaxing humans.

I don't do CD & T either-never have. I think I have some in the fridge but I've not used it.

Anything I do for him tonight? More drench? Red Cell? Vit B? Something I've not mentioned?

[Alice In TX/MO]

It's going to be a gradual recovery from severe anemia. Be patient.

[PrettyPaisley]

Okay. Hard for me. I will try. Hard for me not to bring him inside and let him sleep in my bed. Were it not for his overwhelming fragrance, I swear I would!

[mygoat]

NO vaccine is 100% effective - that's never been claimed by anybody. It is an important TOOL to help prevent disease. It is meant to be used in conjunction with proper management to minimize your risk. There are tons of studies which look at the persistency of antibodies/antitoxins in the blood levels for various durations after boosters, when boosters are effective, what is the most effective vaccination schedule etc. Data's out there.

Goat vaccines are dirt, dirt cheap. Cheapset disease insurance you could ask for. Couple that with good husbandry and you may never (or extremely rarely) see Entero even if raising for years.

Human vaccines - depending which ones you're talking about - are also pretty darn effective at stopping disease. Smallpox - 'nuff said. The only way that'll become ineffective is if someone (finally) releases weapons grade GMO smallpox. Heck, non GMO bioweapon smallpox would be a massive (massive!) problem if released now, because as most vaccines do, the antibodies decrease over time and most people's smallpox vaccines are ineffective at this point due to lack of boostering. (Anybody else read Richard Preston's book, The Demon in the Freezer? Scared my boots off).

Anywho, symptoms ARE similar to classic entero. Including the rapid diet change. Though suspiciously, he had diarrhea before you did th rapid diet change, so it is quite possible it is NOT entero. Usually entero kills rapidly.

I still say fecal, and go from there.

[dunroven]

I'm going to ask this from my ongoing experience. Does this goat have swelling under the jaw? A large hard swelling? If so, that's bottle jaw and if that's there, he has barberpole worms, and you can read my posts from the last 3 weeks here on fighting that. It is an incredible mess and I'm still fighting the anemia. I have given 6 cc of red cell for 1 week and 1 day now. I have given Pepto when called for. I took away all feed except grass hay and water for a few days, then add alfalfa hay back in. I have given a 3-day dose of Ivermectin. Found out just recently that won't work. Now I'm on an every 10-day treatment for 3 treatments of Panacur at 3x the goat's weight. He has been given Yoplait yogurt twice daily with warm water. He's also taking Pedialyte twice a day, which I heat and squirt into his yogurt and he loves that.

Just yesterday I started giving B complex, and have also given him 3 days of Pen G because he started coughing and I am going for a full 7-day course of that, because I'm afraid he'll end up with pneumonia.

I have started feeding him a handful or 2 of goat pellets mixed with rabbit pellets because they say they need 16% to 18% protein, due to what the worms have done to him, and he is getting a couple of carrots a day. He's not out of the woods yet.

I hope your goat does not have Barberpole worms but check that jaw! I missed that for a few days and the worms got a great hold on my Bonsai.

[southerngurl]

Be mindful that a fecal this time of year may not tell you anything. It's too cold for the worms to be laying eggs much right now. Worm him again 10 days from the first dose and perhaps 10 days after that. Unless he happens to have liver flukes, this will do it.

You might also get him on Fir Meadows GI soother, it has blood building herbs.

[PrettyPaisley]

Is bottlejaw contagious?
I just googled and saw pics and I would have to feel around his beard to see if this is what he has.
I ask if they are contagious because -if I recall right- she lost a buckling to bottlejaw this summer. Dadgummit.

Lord I need my own buck. I need a proven Saanen fellow - someone who is a sweetie - to run with my girls and make pretty babies. I'm not liking this buck passing thing right now.

[dunroven]

I believe it is. I have read so much things are getting confused anymore, but yes, especially to the young ones and its because like human babies everything goes in their mouth and if the host goat is shedding oocysts in their feces, and the others pick them up, they will get them.

I have kept my buck separate, and you may want to separate him. They say it takes 30 days to kill "most" of the live worms on the ground and the oocysts as well, at least thats their life cycle.

Good luck and keep us posted. Seems to be quite a bit of these Barberpole worms around right now.

[mygoat]

Bottlejaw itself is NOT contagious.

It is a symptom - particulary edema caused by fluid buildup in the highly vascular head of goats/sheep - of heavy barberpole worm infestation.

It is true that a fecal may tell you nothing - point. Most worms do go dormant for the fall/winter (at least in a reproductive sense, they're still using the adults as a host for their own food) because their offspring die in freezing temps. No worries for them though - they will thoroughly infect your pastures in spring, waiting for new hosts (your new kid crop) to start grazing, because they are nieve to the parasite and will be highly affected. Sneaky little things.

Most people immediately think - Hey! Great time to deworm! But the problem is, if you worm during this dormant stage, the only ones to survive the winter are wormer-resistant worms. Then in the spring, the wormer resistant worms reproduce and infect your fields. When your kids start grazing they injest wormer resistant worms, and become affected. You treat with the same wormer, and it'll be variable levels of ineffective, and ineffectiveness will increase with future wormer use. It cannot be totally avoided, but improper wormer use vastly increases.

I would go ahead and treat at this point, then, with all that in mind. As long as there are other goats on the property untreated, there will be populations of non-wormer exposed worms being put into the environment next year.

Cydectin pour on orally at 1cc per 22lbs. Quest horse gel at 1cc per 100lbs (same is cydectin). Or, ivermectin 1% orally - I'd probably go at a rate of 1cc per 33lbs. Repeat in 14 days.

[dunroven]

With mygoat in all BUT the use of ivermectin! Please, they are saying and I did cite several places to check this out, that if this is Barberpole worms (symptom of bottlejaw), that Ivermectin is ineffective in this and I can attest to it. My goat was NOT getting better, and we are FAR from the south, where Barberpole is prevalent and the worms have become resistant to Ivermectin. They say to use Panacur, Strongid, or Safeguard, at 3x the goat's weight, because these worms every 10 days for 30 days, and to treat the area that the goat was housed in, if at all possible with washing it down (indoor pens meant here), put the goat on gravel until well, and then wash all areas down with strong bleach and let it air dry to stop the spread of the worms. No the bottlejaw is not contagious other than if your other goats get the worms, this is how you can tell it is Barberpole.

According to the experts I cited, a goat who starts going down with Barberpole can be dead within hours. So it is crucial to get one of these hardier wormers into them, and if I hadn't done just that, my Bonsai would be dead now. I know that for an absolute fact.

[mygoat]

Yes there are resistance issues with Ivermectin. Here, it still works for me. Here is where past fecal results will help you decide what to use.

I've never used any of the wormers you listed for goats (panacur, safeguard, strongid), because I know panacur/safeguard is one of the most ineffective dewormers known. It's so safe to give... that it's safe for worms, too. About good for tapes at the rate you listed, and that's it. It's so safe- it's safe for worms, too. While at triple the dose it's still fairly effective, I'd still rather use a higher dose of ivermectin here anyday, over those. (1cc per 25lbs). Heck, the only reason I have safeguard on hand was to deworm the feral cat I brought in... Strongid is a little different, but I probably wouldn't use it in goats either, except maybe for tapes. I've never dewormed for tapeworms... never had to. Even then if I had to, I'd probably use Zimectrin Gold.

Levamisole is another highly effective dewormer (I've never used it = don't know dose off the top of my head, therefore I didn't list it). Cydectin is still highly effective most places. There's a nice list of wormers/their target/dosages on dairy goat info : Worms/Wormers

[dunroven]

It took care of the worms that my goat was experiencing. Sorry but I can attest to that, especially when given at 3 times the dose. I gave 15 cc and will again on the 12th and again on the 22nd. My barberpole worms will be gone, but that's just me and the way my goat is feeling. Ivermectin has worked well for everything except this, and I have kept it on hands for a very long time, but I'm betting you will find, as the worms move more north, as they are saying they are doing, that Ivermectin is going to be very ineffective on your worms. Panacur is working well, and I intend to use it.

I guess YMMV, in this situation, but I know that Panacur was not "safe" for worms here.

[Bearfootfarm]

Does this goat have swelling under the jaw? A large hard swelling? If so, that's bottle jaw

Bottle Jaw is NOT hard.
It's excess fluid, and feels like a waterballoon
It's caused by SEVERE ANEMIA due to parasite overload, and when they develop it they are near death

I'd worm him with Prohibit Drench, and throw the herbal stuff away

Prohibit Soluble Drench Powder

[dunroven]

Well, I'm going to back out of this conversation. I'm finding lots of opinions against what I have just been through. Bottle jaw on my goat was large, swollen and hard. After treating him, it went down and is gone. Sorry Pretty Paisley if I have given you wrong information. You need to take the advice that you have been given, sort through it and figure what works best for your goats. I'll back out and let the others tell you their side of it. I'm just the one going through it now.