Not making stress worse in a crisis

[where I want to]

I try to be helpful where I can be, but not inflict more misery when someone is having a crisis.
I can remember when I first had goats and one developed the most horrible case of CL. It wasn't just an isolated abscess but layers of them in multiple locations.
I was seeing the vet frequently, trying to get information to do the right things by my animal and researching the internet.
When I posted to get help, most of the replies were split evenly between "kill her immediately" and "killing her would be an overeaction and cruel." Almost all of these types of posts had no experience to offer, just opinion of an aggressive nature. These posters could care less about the extra agony they created as I tried to read everything to get the help I needed - all they wanted was to insert their own feelings.
Finally, one woman told me of her experiences of trying to eliminate it from her herd without killing all her animals. She was kind enough to tell me things I needed to know to make decisions, knowing that both sides would aim their flamethrowers straight at her. She helped me so much- I will always remember her gratefully.
It's like the old saw about not worrying about draining the swamp when you up to your neck in allegators. But how to deal with the allegators would be very timely.
Off soap box til next time......................

[dunroven]

Because what works for one may not work for the other. Unfortunately these goats are so seemingly alike and yet so seemingly individual, its incredibly hard to treat, and buy, because the only level playing field for getting everything you need for the "in case" things, is on the internet, but in my case, I don't have the funds to just keep buying all the extra stuff I "may" need.

I am having folks tell me that I should feed alfalfa, others say no. Some say give grain, others say no. My vet has no training in dealing with goats and really just laughs off any of my concerns. I can't rush out to a TSC and buy things. Our Bomgaars are 20 miles in either direction and waiting on getting something because I didn't have it for the last case of whatever, can mean the death of an animal while waiting on the stuff's arrival and then you may never need it again, or it may become expired and so you have wasted money.

I love my goats, and I am trying extremely hard with this buck I have. I NEED to keep him if I'm going forward with my breeding program. He has an extremely impressive blood line, but I'm coming to my wits end with knowing what to do.

Hope I didn't hijack the thread, but I was just trying to explain how the stress of all of this is affecting me.

[Donna1982]

I think a lot on the computer people forget there is another person on the other end. I think sometimes people do not tend to be cold or rude and wouldn't be that way in person. On the other hand there are people out there that do not give a crap about another persons feeling so matter where they are. I personally try to help as much as I can and give my opinion with kindness.

Also when it comes to goats (like many other things in life) everyone has their own opinion on how to do things. We all love our animals and I believe we let our emotions get in the middle... at least I do. I always try to do things in the day that when I lay my head down at night I do not have to worry if I did wrong or hurt someone. That in my opinion is the worst feeling. I HATE disappointing someone or hurting them. Every good post Where I want and I am happy you found someone who was kind and helpful in your time of stress.

[Minelson]

So far everyone has been a huge support for me in my crises. Very warm and loving. I feel blessed for that. I hope I can do the same for others and I think a reminder to be gentle is a good thing.

[Alice In TX/MO]

Sometimes being on the cell phone makes it difficult to type long responses.

[KrisD]

Emotions also don't always come across well on a computer.

[CaliannG]

Some can only give a response BASED on their own experience.

The experience of a commercial breeder, and what they may or may not be able to do is going to be vastly different than that of a small breeder, and what they may or may not do.

And it also depends upon what the person has dealt with in the past.

If either a commercial or small breeder went through having CL or CAE in their herd, and went RAMBO on it, culling extensively, and finally getting a clean herd, which they have maintained, they are going to say, emphatically, "God no! Get rid of it, NOW, before you have to go through what I had to do!"

But, an entirely different reaction may come from either a commercial or small herd who does not consider the diseases as much of a problem.

I have found that the most passionate "KILL IT!" responses come from people who test, and HAVE clean herds, whether or not they have had to cull to get to that position. I have also noticed that the most passionate "Overreaction!" responses tend to come from people who do not test or try to maintain clean herds. This is a TENDENCY that I have noticed, in no way to be construed as a blanket statement.

I have had to cull goats, still in quarantine, that have come up positive for disease....and I hated it. I never, ever, ever want to have to do that again. It didn't help that my Dear Family, who know NOTHING about goats, AFTER the fact, would tell me, "I talked to so-and-so, and they said you could have managed that disease, you didn't have to kill that goat."

Oh, well, thank you so much for telling me that your friend, the cattle person, thinks I didn't have to cull my animal, and also for letting me know that you think I am a goat murderer when I am *still* crying over having to do it....AND showing me that you don't think I know what the heck I am doing and that I want to just haphazardly kill off my animals. I am SO comforted. Really.

At any rate, people's responses are going to be based on their OWN experiences, and their own goals. That's the only point of view they can come from, mostly.

[Backfourty,MI.]

I think most everyone here now always wants to be supportive & help everyone the best they can but we all have our different ways of herd management & sometimes some folks try different things that work where they didn't for others. Everyone has their own opinions but I have never seen where anyone tries to be snarkey, rude or uncaring but some folks are just right to the point about their posts. But like someone else said it's hard to tell tones of voice or how someone means something to come across sometimes over the internet.

[Donna1982]

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

Sometimes being on the cell phone makes it difficult to type long responses.

Ahem to that. Also auto correct sucks. Lol

[where I want to]

I guess I feel that extra, extra care in the case of a person who is emotionally bruised and is facing difficult choices.

[CaliannG]

But, WIWT, how does one tell over the internet, that a person is emotionally bruised and is facing, for them, difficult choices?

"Difficult Choices" is personal, what is a hard choice for one person is a snap decision for another person. How can anyone say anything but from their own thought and experience of what a decision would be for them?

As for the "emotionally bruised" part, I know people in real life that are "emotionally bruised" and terribly upset if someone cuts them off in traffic, and will cry a river to the nearest person to come in contact with them about how traumatizing it was to their heart that someone could be so rude. I know other people who would not mention that they MAY feel anything even if a house fell on their sister, and would NOT appreciate being treated with "kid gloves, like some weakling", no matter if they were torn apart inside, and even if, under pressure, they admitted being hurt. I also know all of the variants in between.

So, unless there is a lot of close history between ALL of the people involved, how would posters know what kind of person the OP is? Don't you think it is asking an awful lot of the 30,000 members of HT that they be able to read the minds and personalities of every person who starts a thread, to know how to best respond to their mental and emotional type?

You can with SOME, for sure, once you get to know them. But what about people that you don't know well at the time? Or perhaps people that often post in different forums, while some only know people well on one or two forums?

I'll go here with my personal experience. There are folks that occasionally post here, and they might have 1,000 posts under them, but I can't say that I honestly know what they are like, because, say, 950 of those posts are in forums like GC or The Classroom, which I seldom, if ever, go to, and the other 50 are here, but spread out over a couple of years, so that I don't remember them well enough to make a decision on how best to respond to them. If I have X amount of time to spend answering or commenting on post, I can spend that time either researching that person's posts in forums that I don't like to visit anyway, to make some sort of judgement call on how best to respond to them, or I can spend that time researching their problem and getting links to whichever studies are applicable, and attempting to write something that communicates the information. (Which actually takes more time than you might think.)

And what if the time spent researching that person's posts leads me to the idea that, because they passionately and vehemently defend their beliefs in Politics, that they are a thick skinned type that won't appreciate any sugar coating, and I respond to them in that fashion, only to discover that THIS is a situation where they are NOT thick-skinned, and dang it, I should have been more sensitive to their feelings? Or, I read their posts in CF, and determine the opposite because of how they talk about their family and respond to other's prayer requests, only to have them come back and tell me that this is LIVESTOCK, darn it, not their CHILDREN, and just why am I candy coating everything?

And yes, *I* have been razzed and denigrated for BOTH of those extremes, and everything in between. Danged if you do, danged if you don't, danged if you didn't do it *enough*, danged if you didn't too much..... some people just can't be pleased, and others have different moods, when yesterday it was fine, but today it is not.

Honestly, people really can only post from their own experience and point of view. We do try to keep everything nice here (It doesn't always work, and no one is perfect, and everyone has bad days where they are more likely to respond to disagreement with heat, or to take offense when there is none offered.), and honestly, that is the best that can be done, for everyone to try to stay as polite as possible.

Otherwise, you get into expecting everyone not only to be mind and personality readers, but also MOOD readers, because folks aren't always in the same frame of mind every day.

[where I want to]

I assume that someone who has a horrible problem facing them, and who discusses what to do, needs careful and thoughtful responses.

Having been in the position where I had no experience to help with decisions, the vet would not say this will happen or that is likely and was emotionally drained by stress of deciding whether a loved creature lives or dies, I know that what I needed was not aggressive opinions in both directions to increase the pain and make me even more unsure. I needed experience and ideas and rational thoughts.

You are right that it's hard to read people but, since we do tend to share a love or our animals, I would rather keep my opinions to myself at a certain point where I know I would be uspet and hurt if I were on the receiving end. I would try to offer my experience, maybe some thoughts for their use or non-use.

A stranger telling you what you ought to think rarely is effective anyway.

[CaliannG]

~smiles~ See, you are coming at this from your own perspective and experience. YOU would want gentle handling of what is a painful situation to you.

But there are other people, and I can think of them right off the bat, who if they were in the same situation, would WANT all of those aggressive, passionate opinions in both directions. They would read them ALL, weigh what they thought would work for them, get a feel, through that aggressive debate of what each person actually knows, gauge it all, and then make a decision that was right for them. They may or may not tell the rest of the group of the decision they had made and why. They generally always thank everyone for their opinions.

But I would not have known this about them if I hadn't seen them do it a few times on here and remembered it. And that particular intuition was not intuition at all, just years and years of watching them. I would not have known that about someone who, say, hadn't posted much for a long time. I *definitely* wouldn't know that about someone who was fairly new.

And since when do humans interact with one another "effectively" most of the time? ~smiles~

When you engage a group, you are engaging group dynamics. Sometimes group dynamics get problematical.

Do you know why I don't go to the politics forum? If you look at my posting history from way back (I don't think I have visited the politics forum a handful of times in the last three years), you will see that I used to, at one time, post in there pretty regularly. I stopped doing so, because my political stances are on the opposite end of the spectrum from many members here, and me posting in the politics forum caused problems HERE, in the goat forum.

Folks that disagreed with me politically, and had very little knowledge of goats, would follow me HERE to engage me in arguments.....about goats....which they knew very little about....JUST to disagree with me. ~chuckles~ If they couldn't find anything solid to disagree with me about, then they would hammer me over, of all things, my goat stories being too long! This sort of "picking" was not because I don't know goats, but because they disliked me due to my political views. It used to happen often enough that several of the people here remember some instances.

And again, it comes to personal perspective. Some of the folks that visit and post on this board are fond of goats, but they do not *love* them. Not like pets. Some of the folks are commercial breeders. It is difficult to *love* a creature that, to identify, you have to read their tag, and said tag reads "X135L-M". Yet these people, as well, often have valuable insights and experience when it comes to goat management.

Also, remember that when most people debate, especially passionate debate, they are defending their own choices. It *is* personal to them. Their emotional response to disagreement is often the same as if they had been personally attacked, which is why such discussions tend to escalate. No one is completely immune to this response, and everyone has had this response over some topic or another.

You mention that you would rather keep your opinions to yourself where you know that if you were on the receiving end of such opinions, you would feel upset and hurt. As an intellectual exercise, imagine that *everyone* else here is doing the same thing, with-holding their opinions if they, themselves, would be hurt or upset if someone were to say the same things to them, and the only difference is that people ARE different, and are not hurt or upset by the same things, and that what upsets one person in either topic, idea, or delivery of communication, would not hurt another person standing right next to them.

Then, there is, of course, the way something is communicated. There was a thread, not to long ago, in CF, that devolved into a political discussion, as many things do around this time every four years or so. One of the conservative posters said, approximately (Not a *direct quote, just as good as my memory can haul up), "Well, we can't help it if WE are upset over the deaths at the embassies!"

That one statement says many things: That the poster, a conservative herself, was upset by the deaths at the embassies. That she believed that other conservatives were equally upset at the needless deaths. Also, that she believed that liberals did not care that innocent people died in those events. Adding in tone and how the thread had gone, she could have stated, "Those Dems are heartless monsters who are not bothered at all by the fact that innocent people were needlessly murdered!"

~grinz~ I wanted to dissect that sentence in the thread as I just did, but the thread was closed before I got a chance. So here, I lay it down as an example of how a simple sentence, said in the passion of debate, can convey a message that is not intended by the writer, but can be hurtful to the reader. I am sure the poster did not intend to imply that Democrats were uncaring monsters, and I am sure she knows plenty of sympathetic, kind, and sweet liberals. Most of the recipients may not have been able to break it down like that, and would not have been able to tell you WHY the sentence was hurtful, just that it was. Several readers DID react emotionally to it, but did not call the poster on it specifically.

The point of all of this is that we cannot expect people to come from an emotional set or perspective that they do not have. We also cannot expect people to be just like us. Nor can we expect people to know, automatically, what someone else wants or expects from others.

The best we can do, in a group setting, in an online forum, is to assume the best and tell ourselves that others have good intentions and do not wish to hurt us.

~smiles~ After all, not a one of us walks on water, and therefore we cannot claim perfection.

[Cannon_Farms]

Though I do enjoy the fellowship of other members here and the opportunity to help when I can I am more sympathetic to the animal than I am to human problems.
I believe that if one is going to take responsibility for an animal that they need to take full and not basic responsibility. It kills me to know a goat had to suffer and die over a $20 bottle of medicine or a $3 vaccine. I cant tell you how many times I have had roman noodles for lunch while paying off a vet bill. So yes I may get a bit nippy but thinking about an animal suffering because some one chose to bring it home knowing they couldn't properly care for it is just plain irresponsible to me.
I don't have a problem with ignorance as long as the person is willing to replace it with knowledge and mistakes do happen so lessons are learned.

As far as CL, there's just no way I can see it being worth the risk to me, my family and other goats but that is my personal opinion and I am entitled to it and to share it just as anyone is entitled to disagree with it or ignore it.

I try to always say this is what I do, if one thing I have found out for sure as nothing works exactly as well for one as another, the 20 different feed changes my goats have been through it proof of that.

We love goats and are very passionate folks just as most forums are about the subject at hand and you have to learn to take the good with the bad. Ive had my undies charred a few times here, I dont know it all so I continue to come back and pick up what I can to learn.

My favorite saying is opinions are like bum holes every one has one and they probably need to be kept to themselves.

[where I want to]

My personal experience is not that many people who give harsh judgements, even in a situation where there is a crisis going on, are tolerant when on the other receiving end. Quite the contrary. I find that disagreeing with the harsh remark will simply make you a target for potshots in the future on totally unrelated threads.

Although I do take your point that the "dem monster poster's" remark does not neccessarily reflect her less agitated personality, it does point out a difference in what I meant when I started this post and what you meant about that political post.

When a person has an up front, personal crisis going on, especially when it involves our emotional connection to our animals or family, they may not be able to stand back and deal with a harsh opinion at that point. Later maybe but not immediately. Panic under control first.

[where I want to]

Canon Farms- I agree with you about not providing care for self-serving reasons. I too have gone pretty far down the road in paying for care- as I am right now.
I have no problem saying this is my choice.
I may try to offer alternatives, although I frequently have the feeling that, for some people, there is no action that will be convenient enough to done.
Have you ever found that someone like that will ever take censure from a forum to heart and change their thoughts on this? It would be nice to think that but I never have seen it happen personally.

[CaliannG]

WIWT, sometimes they will.

Sometimes, someone who has been selfish and uncaring towards their animals will see how others view them, and, with repeated beating over the head with a board on the subject, change their thinking and their management practices. It is a slooooooooooooooow process, but peer pressure DOES work.

Not over days, or even weeks or months....generally it takes a year or two, but I *have* seen it happen. Those few instances of success do, of course, cause the rest of us to realize that perhaps the patient and continual pressure for care of animals WILL sink in, and cause change in others. If it happened two or three times, it can happen again, right?

That's also why we try to give the BEST possible treatments/management/facilities first and foremost. We know that there are people who have financial troubles, either long term or immediate, and they can't always afford the BEST care or treatment for a problem....but if they know what the best IS, they can work for it in the future.

And, honestly and truthfully, even selfish, stingy people can be made to realize that slighting care on goats wastes money in the long run that COULD go to a new television. If the goats become non-productive or die due to lack of basic care, if the person is going to stay in goats, then those animals have to be replaced, which costs more money than the care would have cost.

And those that were hoping to get something for nothing quickly get out of goats. It is sad that the goats had to suffer and die, but at least if those kinds of people are discouraged, no MORE goats will have to suffer and die at their hands.

If we KNOW a person, we can change advice and tone to suit that person and their situation. We can "tailor" specifically for them. But if we DON'T know a person, then we have to go with the "average".

Like with you. You have kept a CL positive goat and had it show up later in offspring in your herd. BUT, you AREN'T selling diseased goats to unsuspecting buyers, or trading off animals to other herds to spread infection. You have been acting upon it responsibly.

NOW, you have also read tons of threads in these years where someone sold a KNOWN diseased animal to an unsuspecting buyer on here, lying outright about the status...and the heartbreak that has caused for the buyer. What if the seller was someone who got on here years ago, with the very same question, and due to the advice s/he got on here, decided to just keep the animal and deal with any consequences later, and when "later" came along, decided it was okay to just keep mum about the problem because people on here gave him or her the impression that it was "no big deal"? What if keeping an opinion quiet for the sake of peaceful harmony here indirectly led to someone tomorrow posting a thread that reads, "My baby is dying! What do I do?!? "

What if, by allowing people to post, without refutation or debate, in the interests of not allowing harshness to arise, that "CAE testing is not necessary, and you don't have to cull. Everyone has CAE in their herds anyway." means that next spring, you get to see the post of a 15 year old girl, with the baby goats she got for her birthday and has very carefully cared for and fed and loved, begging for advice of how to save them, because they are having seizures caused by encephalitis and she doesn't know what to do?

What if YOU posting and saying, "No, that is absolute B.S.! You should test for CAE, and if you do not cull positive animals, at least raise them on CAE prevention! Not everyone has dirty herds, so it CAN be done!" would have caused the breeder of those goats, who was lurking and never posted, to think "Well, I could at least test and practice prevention. I bottle feed anyway, so it is not THAT much extra work." Which would have meant the 15 year old girl would not be posting and crying over her dying kids that she loved so much?

Some threads on this forum have *thousands* of views, but perhaps only 50 posts all written by the same 12 members. And you never know when YOUR post might be the one that effects the practices, and the goats, of someone who never once says a word in the forums at all.

So those who CARE will do their best to promote proper care and management. The selfish people will post, vehemently defending their personal choices, and it can only be hoped that they are shown, through the discussion on the thread, that they ARE self-serving, and that such lack of care is not considered acceptable.

Because there are also those people reading on the sidelines, who have not made up their minds yet.....and we would rather that they make up their minds towards the caring end, rather than the self-serving end.

No post or thread in a public forum is ONLY for the OP. This forum has been, mainly, educational, and secondly, social and supportive. With everything else after that.

[where I want to]

One more time into the breach.
I am NOT saying that a person should hold the useful information to themselves. What is needed IS useful information.
What is not needed is something to the effect of "I would never have a (blank) goat at my place. I would never even visit a place that had a (blank) goat." And to see at the same time "It is not a big deal" and "How many goats have died unneccessarily over this?"
Presuming that you are on a forum asking about this means you do not have the experience you want. Hearing a bunch of conflicting opinions without any reliable information to support these opinions is worse than useless- for shortly the forum will turn into a heated argument between the two. It just raises the stress level without helping. Especially since such opponents usually are not so good at listening to each other.
When my first goat developed a CL abscess, my vet said that sometimes a CL goat may have one abscess and never show a sign again. He wouldn't say further. I didn't know if that meant it was a big deal or not. I did not "choose" anything about it- I felt that I was on a train ride and did not know how to get off. The doe was already pregnant.
I was told that a kid could not pick up the disease if there was no contact with the doe at birth. Someone's opinion that turned out wrong. See how "opinions" can be passed off as knowledge? And in the absence of reliable information, it might be all you have.
And just try the CL vaccine issue to raise a bazillion opinions based on no experience too. Now I have experience with that too. But I read lots of very strongly worded and totally incorrect opinions on that too.
It's like the difference between a dinner coversation about car accidents and being in one. At this moment you need the Jaws of Life, not a lecture on better driving. Timing meaningful.

And wrong information tends to have a life of it's own. It can be repeated and repeated til it sounds like authority. A reason for lots more care than normal in posting, IMO, rather than less.

[Sherry in Iowa]

CannonFarms and I are probably alike in the fact that in a crisis over an animal..the animal comes first. For me, it's not about holding someone's hand..no..it's about hey, the animal needs xyz or it probably is not going to make it. How can I help? Can I research, give you my phone number, or give you prayers for strength to deal with your animal? If comfort is needed by the human..there's plenty of time for that after the animal makes it or dies.

Another thing comes in to play here too..at least for me. I, like many others here, have had emails and phone calls for help from people. So..I give the best I can, I refer, I make sure the person understands what I have said. What happens? The person does not follow through..doesn't take the advice, doesn't try, makes excuses. Now the animal is either dead or too far gone for help from me. That gets discouraging after a few years.

Truth is..for me..that is why I stopped selling to the public. I used to write out what to do for the animal..gave my phone number..answered the phone anytime of the day/night..did research..did call backs..spent hours..all to have the person say..I couldn't blah blah.

Maybe that jades me on how or if I answer a question on here. I have also always raised my animals a bit different..they are dying off..of old age. I may not do everything right..but the animals here eat if we can't. If we can't order a med or hay..then we don't have any business having them. We raise our animals as close to what was their natural "way" as we can. We use old folk/home remedies and hopefully common sense. I am not too proud to ask if I have a question.

People are soooo different. And, the Internet has helped to make a sentence that would never have been questioned a handful of years ago..now seem like a heartless, non-forgivable statement.

In the end..this forum is about goats..not people. It's about how to raise them, keep them healthy and get them well when they are not. Goats, they're what the focus should be on.