Iron content in water & goat polio???....

[The Tin Mom]

Dh came home from visiting one of the ag instructors at our local college. Dh told him about the doe we lost last June and the doeling that was so sick in September. The instructor said that they had experience with similar situations and had had an autopsy on at least one goat that was fine one day and found dead the next. The autopsy indicated goat polio.

The instructor said that cocci could cause the deficiency in thiamine (we knew this) but that also there is an incredibly high incidence of goat polio in our area due to the significant level of iron in our water. Apparently, the iron not only interferes with absorption of copper (I have to give copper a minimum of every four - six weeks or my herd starts showing signs of copper deficiency), it also interferes with the absorption of Thiamine and can lead to goat polio.

Thoughts on this? Have any of you heard of this before?

I had thought about using the Replamin anyway, but we are not selenium deficient and I had a friend who had horrible issues with kidding the one year she did give selenium..... This makes me wonder if Replamin or at least sticking the girls with a Thiamine shot on a regular basis would be a good idea. With the Replamin, the selenium just makes me nervous....

[CaliannG]

Yes, iron severely inhibits the uptake of copper, zinc, and cobalt, so deficiencies can be seen even in areas that are high in those minerals.

Tin Mom, I am looking at the geological surveys, and SE Kansas is not considered a seleniferous area? Not that your soil is deficient in it, but that plants don't uptake it well due to soil sulfur? Do you have acid soil or alkaline soil? (Or neutral soil?) Was your property once farmed, or has it always been livestock range? Are their farms near to you?

I was looking up seleniferous areas in Kansas, and soil composition, and how iron interacts with selenium, and ran across the info that much of Kansas is on selenium rich shale, but in actual seleniferous areas, where selenium is in a form that can be metabolized by plants, (Selenium Oxide 4-6) and does not have either a pH that interferes with uptake, or much sulfur in soil composition, that ONLY selenium tolerant plants can grow, such as poison vetch and aster. So those areas are only used for livestock range, not farming and gardens.

So, I am wondering what your soil is like, and how well it grows pasture plants, gardens, etc., because that would give me an idea of whether or not to advise you to use the Replamin.

Replamin has a small amount of selenium (mainly because the government has a VERY low maximum dosage that is allowable in livestock feed and supplements), but still, if your area approaches toxic levels of soil selenium without any uptake inhibitors, it would not be a good idea.

If your area has a lot of uptake inhibitors, such as sulfur, it would show in the plants you have in your pasture. If those inhibitors are present, then the Replamin is safe to give your goats.

Here is a study on uptake inhibitors in ruminants: Trace Mineral Bioavailability in Ruminants

The reason I think you may have a lot of sulfur in your soil is how much you have to bolus. Iron DOES inhibit copper uptake, but not so much that you should have to give boluses every month! However, high iron AND high sulfur would inhibit it enough to cause that kind of deficiency.

I haven't found any studies where iron inhibits use or synthesis of thiamine. What I have found is that thiamine disrupts the iron-sulfur bond and allows for the uptake of Fe-S protein strands as well as aiding in the absorption of iron.

However, there could be other factors that are inhibiting uptake of thiamine in your goats, although I haven't found much that effects thiamine metabolism at all. Lorides will inhibit it some (short chain fatty acids), and ethanol will inhibit it a LOT. Ar your goats boozing it up after you go to bed?

[Alice In TX/MO]

I have not heard that cocci would cause a deficiency in thiamine in the goat. Will google on that later.

The way some of the cocci meds work is to block thiamine uptake in the cocci organisms, and there is a misconception that it does that to the goat also. It does NOT.

Will research after milking and morning chores.

[The Tin Mom]

Thanks, Caliann & Alice!

We are going to my folks this morning, so I don't have time to absorb all the info.

I am great with debits and credits but can't wrap my mind around nutrition for some reason. I will need to come back this evening when I can really think about and study this! I very much appreciate the time you obviously took to answer my question, Caliann! It looks like there may be several things for me to consider, and I need to look at the overall nutrition for the herd. They are healthy - but maybe i can change a few things and improve their health more. I may need quite a bit of help - so I hope you don't mind a lot of questions!

I did call our extension office, and I have looked at the selenium maps. Our county is not deficient - but I don't know about the sulfer and other factors. I keep the water analysis from the water district. I will look at that, too.

Got to go - I have already spent too much time on here this morning!

[Waiting Falcon]

In the county I used to live in the maps showed it was not selenium deficient.
I do not know how many goats died because of selenium deficiency . The DVMs had been treating dairy cows for deficiency but they never seemed to be aware that was what was killing the goats. Someone finally sent off a dead goat to a private lab and found that indeed the death was caused by selenium deficiency. Then the DVMs started stocking Bo-se and encouraging the use. Deaths stopped. Maps were found to be wrong.

But that said Selenium deficiency can mock over usage of selenium.

[The Tin Mom]

Originally Posted by Waiting Falcon

In the county I used to live in the maps showed it was not selenium deficient.
I do not know how many goats died because of selenium deficiency . The DVMs had been treating dairy cows for deficiency but they never seemed to be aware that was what was killing the goats. Someone finally sent off a dead goat to a private lab and found that indeed the death was caused by selenium deficiency. Then the DVMs started stocking Bo-se and encouraging the use. Deaths stopped. Maps were found to be wrong.

But that said Selenium deficiency can mock over usage of selenium.

Thanks! That is a very good point. I will call the extension office again and also check with my vet. I know our extension agent, and her family has been in the cattle business here for several generations, so I think we probably aren't deficient - she was very quick with her answer and didn't even look it up. I would imagine she knows from her family's involvement in the cattle industry, but I didn't ask about other factors that could affect the way minerals are used.

Now, I have made myself late! LOL! Good thing my mom loves me and will understand - although I won't tell her my tardiness is due to my goat forum addiction!