Talking to Replamin

Alice In TX/MO · #1 10/11/12, 09:08 AM

Just got off the phone with the Replamin folks. Got referred to Vejay who has a lovely Indian/Pakistani accent.

He said the warning for goats is being taken off the label, as they DO know that sheep and goats have different copper needs.

I told him about the results we've seen in our short experiment, and he's excited.

I asked about the very high Vitamin A levels, and he's looking some things up and is going to call me back.

Alice In TX/MO · #2 10/11/12, 09:20 AM

He's from southern India, and it's only a 28 hour plane ride away. OUCH!

He said that what they are recommending to cattle breeders. The 5 cc per week is a loading dose and/or for stressed or dry lot animals who don't get to eat "anything green." They recommend after loading to give it four times per year.

According to Vejay, dairy goats need only 2000 IU of Vitamin A per day, so weekly use of Replamin over the long term could potentially overdose a goat on Vitamin A.

CaliannG · #3 10/11/12, 09:37 AM

It is not as much of an issue with milking does, Alice. Goats do store Vitamin A in the liver fatty tissues, but they put a lot into their milk as well.

Looking up some studies on it.

CaliannG · #4 10/11/12, 09:45 AM

12,000 IU of Vitamin A per day for 14 week?!?

Effect of dietary Vitamin A on mixed function...

CaliannG · #5 10/11/12, 10:29 AM

Okay, my last 45 minutes of perusing Google Scholar has led me to the conclusion that finding out what toxic levels of Vitamin A are in goats is nearly impossible, and finding what they are in humans is darn difficult. In Africa, they give shots to infants and pregnant or nursing mothers that live is diet deficient areas of 400,000 IU of Vitamin A, and this is considered okay.

Studies involving how Vitamin A effects the toxicity of things like radiation, alkaloids, blah, blah, blah in goats have them giving the goats supplements of up to 20,000 IU per day, long term.

The closest I found is a study for humans, which should compare to goats by weight:

Government Paper

The chart on page 7 shows that 3,000 mg per kilogram of body weight taken per day is considered "normal range". Now, I agree that this is old information (from the 70's, no less!) and would be grateful is someone would link a study that shows the current beliefs of what the range for "normal" daily intake for goats, or humans, should be.

Dreamgoat Annie · #6 10/11/12, 10:46 AM

So...how does that translate for non-milking goats like wethers and my pasture potato does?

Sue

**mygoat** · #7 10/11/12, 10:57 AM

I wouldn't use human info for goats and assume they'd be similar... Ruminants do not equal monogastrics.

I'd use cow studies - which are MUCH more studied (probably the most studied livestock aside from maybe hogs and chickens... neither of which are comperable to goats) - and go from there. Or, sheep - but I doubt they have as many vit A studies as do cows. Not ideal, but i'd feel MUCH better about using data from the same class of animal than comparing humans to goats.

I wish they would hurry up and update the Nat. Academies press Sm. Ruminant nutrition online. I have the hardcover at home, but I'm in Lansing right now and the book is back home on the farm.

where I want to · #8 10/11/12, 11:06 AM

A beautiful discussion- very informative. Thanks to those who put the effort into it.
So Plus r no Plus?

Alice In TX/MO · #9 10/11/12, 11:25 AM

I'm using the Plus.

lasergrl · #10 10/11/12, 11:44 AM

Replamin plus has about 86,000 iu per 5 ml dose. if given once per week, that is about 12,000 iu per day equivalent. Spinach has 11,000 iu of vit a for a measly 1/2 cup portion. So is that high amount of Vitamin A really a big deal? Goats eat way more then 1/2 cup of leafy greens in one day. Maybe the liver stores minerals inefficiently since it seems to take WAY more copper then other animals, to keep their levels up. Just a thought, and I have no idea or nutritional back ground other then small animal. It also makes a difference if its retanol or carotenoid form.

**mygoat** · #11 10/11/12, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lasergrl

Replamin plus has about 86,000 iu per 5 ml dose. if given once per week, that is about 12,000 iu per day equivalent. Spinach has 11,000 iu of vit a for a measly 1/2 cup portion. So is that high amount of Vitamin A really a big deal? Goats eat way more then 1/2 cup of leafy greens in one day. Maybe the liver stores minerals inefficiently since it seems to take WAY more copper then other animals, to keep their levels up. Just a thought, and I have no idea or nutritional back ground other then small animal. It also makes a difference if its retanol or carotenoid form.

Not every leafy green is the same. Spinach is distinctly known for being a SUPER nutritive food, your average pasture plants are NOT going to compare.

In dried and stored foods, I was under the assumption that vitamin content drops off as well.

You're also adding that amount ON TOP OF what they are taking in from their normal diet. It *could* be problem. Any non-water soluble vitamin could be an issue for overdose.

lasergrl · #12 10/11/12, 12:56 PM

Dandelion greens, cooked, boiled, drained, with salt: Nutrition Facts. Content of Vitamins, Cholesterol, Calcium, Magnesium, Fatty Acids and so on.

Kale, raw, Brassica oleracea (Acephala Group): Nutrition Facts. Content of Vitamins, Cholesterol, Calcium, Magnesium, Fatty Acids and so on.

Kale and dandelion greens

Here is grape leaves, my goats eat alot of those:
http://www.tititudorancea.com/z/nutr...leaves_raw.htm

Willow leaves
http://www.tititudorancea.com/z/nutr...ung_leaves.htm

Here is another common plant, lambs quarters, lower end of vit A but still a good amount.

http://foodinfo.us/SelectedItem.aspx?NDB_No=11245

Now these are mostly listed as cooked so not sure how that affects the vitamin content.

CaliannG · #13 10/11/12, 01:58 PM

Well, I looked up, again, dosage information for Replamin Plus.

86,637 IU of Vitamin A, which equates to ...ummm....

Dang, figuring out these measurements is a PAIN.

Okay, according to the "Nutrient Requirements of Small Ruminants", 2007, National Research Council, intake of Vitamin A from retinol and retinyl esters should not exceed 6,000 mcg per day. According to the Office of Dietary Supplements, National Institutes of Health, 1 IU in retinols is the equivalent of 0.3 mcg.

So, math.

86,637 divided by 7 days would be a daily intake of 12,376.71 I.U. Multiplied by 0.3 is 3,713 mcg per day.

Manchamom · #14 10/11/12, 02:29 PM

What kind of vitamin A makes a difference too. The type from liver and eggs (retinol) can become toxic in huge amounts. The type from plants (beta carotene) is much safer and will turn your skin orange way before any damage is done.

CaliannG · #15 10/11/12, 02:50 PM

True, Manchamom.

So far, from what I looked at today, the Replamin Plus, given weekly, does not approach toxic levels (which is 6,000 mcg daily). If the goats have a good supply of stored Vitamin A, they will excrete betacarotene (which is the precurser found in plants) rather than spending the energy to convert it into usable retinols.

They store retinols, once they have been converted from carotenes, but they don't store carotenes. Therefore, as long as the levels of retinols they are getting are well below the allowable maximums, then they will only convert enough carotenes in their food diets for what they might lack or need. The rest will be discarded.

I haven't had a problem with it, so I will continue to use it until and unless a problem develops.

Bambitski · #16 10/11/12, 05:13 PM

I must have missed something, has there been a problem with the Replamin Plus? I give it to my girls bi weekly. Seems to be doing well for them. Especially since every mineral that I have given them, they turn their noses up to.

CaliannG · #17 10/11/12, 05:57 PM

No one has had a problem yet. Alice is just researching possible long-term effects.

Minelson · #18 10/11/12, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bambitski

I must have missed something, has there been a problem with the Replamin Plus? I give it to my girls bi weekly. Seems to be doing well for them. Especially since every mineral that I have given them, they turn their noses up to.

I think most are giving it once a week Bambitski...You are giving twice a week?

CageFreeFamily · #19 10/12/12, 12:42 AM

So what is the longest that anyone here has dosed their goats with RP every week? A couple of months? A year?
Should we be giving a lower weekly dose after the initial loading dose? Switching to regular Replamin?

Alice In TX/MO · #20 10/12/12, 07:21 AM

We've only been doing this a couple of months, I think. No, there have been NO problems.

I was just curious about the high levels of Vitamin A, so I called the company to ask about it. The result was a VERY interesting conversation which I passed on here.

I don't think there's ANY reason to change from Replamin Plus to the lower formulation. The Plus is a MUCH more comprehensively formulated product. Here's the link to a thread with a comparison.

Diff Between Replamin/Replamin Plus & Deficient Preg Doe