Help with a thin goat

nod4eight · #1 10/09/12, 10:35 AM

OK, sure didn't take me long to need some help! I purchased a two bucklings at the auction about a month ago - one LaManca and one Saanen. Obviously no papers or anything. We go to the auction to get a better feel for prices and in fact I didn't plan on buying anything (auction barn is a very dangerous place for us!), and to be honest I was losing interest after three hours. But I heard the auctioneer going down, down, down and finally said "someone give me a dollar for these goats". I looked down and saw two of the most under-nourished kids I've seen in a while and I paid a buck.

Unfortunately the Saanen didn't make it. We tried our best - even to the point that once he was choking on a piece of corn husk he found on the ground. I couldn't get him to breath after I dug it out of his throat so I gave him mouth to mouth. (That's a whole nother story and quite amusing I might add). He made it another week after that, but sometimes you just start too far in the hole.

My dilemma now is this. The LaMancha (I call him Stilts because he is so skinny with long legs) hangs out with a little Nubian doeling and I kept them separated from the herd for a while. Now I put them all together since I am getting ready for the colder weather. Since I put them together these two just hang out by each other. They have no interest in playing or doing the pecking order thing - to the point they don't eat well. She does better than him and he has me really worried. I feed them separately, and the two even come out of the pen to forage on weeds and grasses, but he won't put on weight.

I wormed him with Morantel Tartrate, but he doesn't eat all the pellets. I don't have ivermectin, except for the 1.87% horse wormer - is that goat-safe? I also have been giving him B1 shots (since he is not eating much at all) and our vet recommended B-complex. So he is getting 1.5cc of that daily now. He does seem to eat better when he gets to just wander the barnyard, but the food will be gone shortly with winter coming. He seems to have a slight cold - little bit of nasal discharge and an occasional cough. I have not started antibiotics at this point.

Thoughts? What should I do differently? What haven't I thought of? Help me out folks! tia
Help with a thin goat - Goats

Rockytopsis · #2 10/09/12, 10:42 AM

Boy I hope some one chimes in here besides me. Just looking at him I would say wormey, and from what I have read the peleted kind does not work all that well.

Nancy

Donna1982 · #3 10/09/12, 11:07 AM

I would worm now with cydectin and then again in ten days and once more in ten days.For the snotty nose does he have a fever with it? That could be a sign of allergies but also pneumonia. I give mine children's mucinex (2 cc). Allergies are horrible here right now everyone from me to every animal is suffering. Also have you had him on any type of cocci prevention? If not I would start now. He sure is cute and I am sorry you have been having such a hard time. I know how you feel I lost two within the first two weeks of them coming home.

nod4eight · #4 10/09/12, 11:22 AM

Thanks for the reply. I've never used cydectin - would you get the injectable I imagine? They did have bugs on them when they came and it took a few dustings of DE to get rid of them, but the exterior bugs are gone now.

Any other opinions on type of wormer? Also, I am not the greatest with the meds (wifey likes to do that and I don't) I am the administrator of shots, she decides what goes in the syringe. But she is at work and this morning this little guy is pretty down this morning. Is it ok to treat with cocci meds along with the wormer and b-complex all at the same time? I don't want to shock his system or OD him on anything...

Donna1982 · #5 10/09/12, 11:55 AM

Your best bet (if you can afford it) is take a sample and see what type of worms you are dealing with. I cannot do it on a normal base because my vet charges around 70 bucks to do a fecal... yeah I know hes a rip off.

Cydectin is what we use here (and most use on their farm) and yes we use the cattle pour on (purple color). This here is a great link to keep bookmarked or print it out. It has all the different wormers on it. Worms/Wormers Give all wormers orally you do not want to SubQ any of it.

I have done all three before without any ill effects. Again I suggest if you can afford to go get a fecal done. He might need a cocci treatment instead of a preventative.

Cocci preventative we use is CoRid (6.25 cc per 22 lbs. for 5 days.) There is other preventive out there and someone else can chime in here on that.

Edited to add this - Here is a link to all the different medication for Cocci and more about it. http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/index.php?topic=9125.0

trnubian · #6 10/09/12, 12:06 PM

If it were ME, here is what I would do. Get some Thiamine and give him that instead of the Vitamin B complex. Go to the farm store and buy a tube of Quest for horses. Squirt it into a small bowl and mix it up real good. Then suck up the correct dosage into a syringe. ( 1 cc per 100 pounds given orally.) It takes a little bit to suck up the dosage but it's worth it to make sure it is mixed well and dosed at the proper level. The Quest is the horse version of cydectin and is great for people who do not have tons of goats. The other types of cydectin come in large doses that it would take some 5 years to go through.

Feed through de wormers rarely work. I would dose him with the quest now and again in 10 days.

Also get him on some sort of probiotic like probias or jump start or go and steal cud from a healthy adult and make him eat it. (The later would be best.) Do the probiotic 2 or 3 times a week until he seems better.

Unless he has really dark runny stool I would wait a week or so on the cocci prevention just so you don't go overboard on him.
If you can get them I would also get him on lactated ringers to rehydrate him and help give him a boost.
Put him and his goat buddy in a pen by themselves and offer free choice alfalfa hay and maybe a little kid starter and free choice loose mineral and of course fresh clean water.

It also sounds like he has pnuemonia. In his weakened state and lowered immune system and being brought through the stress of the sale barn I would be surprised if he DIDN'T have pnuemonia. I would give him a shot of banamine (1cc per 100 pounds) now and a shot of excenel (I dose at 1 cc per 25 pounds for 3 days).

He may still not make it but that is what I would do to try and pull him through. Like you said before, sometimes you get them too late in the game.

CaliannG · #7 10/09/12, 12:06 PM

You can use either injectable or pour on Cydectin, but give it to him ORALLY.

The pelleted wormers don't work. The goats never eat enough of them to be effective at anything other than raising the resistance of the worms to medications.

Has he been on coccidia treatment or prevention? If not, you may wish to start him on that. It could have a lot to do with why he is so thin.

If he were to come into my barn, he would be in quarantine (pending tests....sorry, but sale barns have cooties, and often critters come from there with incurable diseases that I don't want spread in my herd), he would be wormed with TWO different kinds of wormers, given orally, at no less than twice the labeled dose by weight. I would likely use Ivomectin and Eprinectin, since those are good in my area, but Cydectin and Ivomectin would be fine. (Yes, your horse paste will work. Give it to him at 3x the recommended dose by weight)

I would also be giving him shots of B-Complex.

THEN, I would also be dosing him with 5cc Replamin Plus Gel. At that young, his coat should NOT look like that. He is mineral deficient.

All of the things I have suggested will not hurt him, even if you give him too much. In fact, with wormers, it is ALWAYS better to err on the side of "too much" rather than "too little".

A good, one-hit-and-you're-done, wonder drug for coccidia is Baycox. You can get it from your vet (it is an Rx in the U.S.) or you can order it here:

Baycox 200ml 5% Toltrazuril

Toltrazuril is the generic name for the stuff. Don't worry about having a 200ml bottle of the stuff, if you have goats, and subsequently have kids, this is something that you need to have on hand.

Yes, you can give it all to him at once. The oral wormers will take a day or so to work.

I am not going to sugar coat anything, that kid is in bad shape. Goat kids seldom show any sign of illness or lethargy until they are in severe danger.

nod4eight · #8 10/09/12, 12:17 PM

trnubian - thanks for the detailed info. A few questions from this newby here -

lactated ringers - ??
banamine - paste or injectable? I'm thinking inject since you said shot but it's never safe to assume.
excenel - I don't have that but I have Nuflor, duramycin 72-200 and tylan. Can any of those substitute?

He is looking much better now. He is sitting up in the sunshine, I can imagine his ears are perked but cannot tell for sure (lol), and chewing his cud. Seems like a good sign - right?

I do have probios and fresh start and can work on making him and his buddy a pen separate from the others this afternoon and give them free choice of the good hay along with fresh water of course.

He loves grain, but have been afraid to give him much because I've heard that can increase the polio risks??

nod4eight · #9 10/09/12, 12:23 PM

Thanks for the replies!!

A few other things -

Stay on B-complex? Or just do the thiamine?

Per our vet's advice I gave him some ivermectin. He said 2cc per 100# - he's about 35 lbs and I gave one cc. From what I read above I can give him the cydectin as well?

Sorry for all the followup questions. Sifting through all the advise I just want to make sure.

lasergrl · #10 10/09/12, 12:31 PM

Just a warning if he had bad coccidia as a kid his digestive system may be past the point of repair and he may never thrive. I had a Boer with that problem and he had a similiar look and general not doing well. I would deworm with the quest gel but the ivermectin paste may work too. I've heard anywhere from 2-3 times the horse dose by weight. I aways over do it.

trnubian · #11 10/09/12, 12:35 PM

If you have already given him the ivermectin (and I actually use the dosage at 1 cc per 35 pounds so the ammount you gave him is good) I would wait 10 days and then use the cydectin or Quest.

You can continue the vit. B if thats all you have. If you had Thiamine that would be better and that helps to prevent polio actually.

Just start slow with the grain. Work him up slowly to where he is eating a good ammount. If you start slow he should be fine.

The Nuflor will work for an antibiotic but it burns and they don't like it. I forget the dosage on that one right now though.
Yes the injectable banamine is what I was referring to.

Lactated ringers are basicly saline bags like IV bags you get from your vet. You just give it sub Q in several different spots across their back and sides. Not given as a IV.

Good luck!

nod4eight · #12 10/09/12, 12:41 PM

Never have heard that term. I have several saline bags that I keep on hand - just give it subq? Interesting. Dosage?

I have vit B-complex as well as thiamine hydrochloride. Like I said, I'm bad with deciding what to use and the med names. Is the thiamine hydrochloride ok/bad/good/none of the above?

mammabooh · #13 10/09/12, 12:43 PM

I was just looking at his picture here and in the other thread you started. His back end looks really strange to me...like it's poofed out or something. I was just sort of wondering if maybe he has some sort of internal abnormality.

Anyone else think it looks weird?

I sure hope you can get the poor guy straightened around! Oh...and welcome to the board!!!!

trnubian · #14 10/09/12, 01:14 PM

Nuflor is 1 cc per 33 pounds. Yes you can give the saline bags under his skin. If he is drinking well and does not have the poops though he should be ok without any. But you could give him half a bag if you think he needs it.

As far as the thiamine goes I would have to look at the bottle to see what it really is. If you are giving him plenty of vit. B complex that will help boost his thiamine anyway. But ask your vet about the Thiamine you have and see what he recommends.

CaliannG · #15 10/09/12, 01:18 PM

Thiamine hydrochloride is the right stuff.

Nuflor will work. It stings, though.

GoldenWood Farm · #16 10/09/12, 01:37 PM

I also would do a fecal on him to see exactly what he is dealing with (they can tell you if you are dealing with cocci or not and exactly what type of worms he has if any which helps you know what to worm with). Also I would copper bolus him if you haven't already and give him a shot of BOSE if you are in a selenium deficient area. To get weight on him I would use Equine Senior horse feed (I use Purina brand) and start out slow, this is what my goat vet uses on her herd for thin animals and recommended to me when I have had animals get really thin.

Another thing if you can't get ringers you can orally get them hydrated. It will take you a few hours so have some patience but it works. I did this with a buck that I had go down a month or two ago and it saved his life. I did a gallon a day of pedialyte and I just syringed it down his throat 20cc's at a time (do it carefully so it goes down his throat not his wind pipe, I got a drenching syringe like this Pipestone Veterinary Clinic and that at my local feed store and it made it easier)

Oh another thing is I would get some probiotics in him and have some baking soda out for him to eat. Praying he pulls through for you!

Justine

GoldenWood Farm · #17 10/09/12, 01:40 PM

Oh I just saw you have some saline on hand. I would ask your vet how many cc's he should get Sub-Q but I think the most you can put in any one spot is 15-20cc's but don't quote me on that. It might be less with him being such a small kid.

What is his temp running? That will tell you a lot about how bad of shape he is in. Chewing cud in my book is a good sign, if they are really sick they won't be chewing cud at all.

Justine

nod4eight · #18 10/09/12, 01:41 PM

I can only imagine how Nuflor stings - I can't count how many times I've been kicked injecting it! (Of course after years of rodeo and horse training getting kicked by goats and calves is nothing!)

He has normal goat poop, no runs. He really enjoys getting into the old produce that we pick up from the grocery for the pigs. Leafy greens, watermelon, cants, pumpkins, apples, strawberries, grapes etc. I let him go for it because I feel it adds a variety of vitamins that his hay doesn't give him - that should be ok shouldn't it?

He is looking better now and is up and around. He always seems to perk up a bit after the B-shot. Will be building a small pen for him and buddy later today.

nod4eight · #19 10/09/12, 01:46 PM

I have half a pallet of equine senior and mare n foal that the feed store gave me. It has sat out and the top bags were ruined but the bags underneath are good (fresh, not moldy). That is his favorite, but as I said I have hesitated giving it to him.

Probios dosage? Seems like all I can find is for new kids. I have one tube left with 25 g left in it.

CaliannG · #20 10/09/12, 01:59 PM

Figure the dose for new kids as equal to 5lbs, then give him that dose by weight. (If he is 35lbs, give him 7 times the dose. If he is 60lbs, give him 12 times the dose, etc.)

B-shots perk up goats and give them appetite...but if it has such an obvious reaction, it means he really needs it.

Goats are browsers, so they eat a variety of things. If he has been mainly on grass hay, and grain, he has not gotten the vitamins and minerals that he needs. Goats need a LOT of copper, mind blowing amounts of copper. They also need a LOT of selenium. These minerals are mid-layer trace minerals (which means they tend to concentrate under the topsoil layer, but above the deep soil layer), which means that grasses, such as hay, and cereal grains (which are just another grass) are too shallow rooted to bring up much of them into their plant material.

Which is why goats tend to prefer to browse on broadleaf plants, and woody-stemmed plants (trees), as these have deep enough root structures to bring up the minerals into the plant fibers that goats need.

Barring getting him completely on kudzu hay (which I don't think even grows in Idaho), your best bet is to get a mineral gel down him. There are other reasons for that, also... the only thing that really fights off barberpole worms in goats is copper. The mineral gel contains lots of copper that is highly bioavailable.

Hope this helps!