Goat shopping - considering a variety pack

[Colors88]

I have been throwing around the idea abouts getting goats for a while. A couple weeks ago I attended a goat class through the local University and was sold. My daughter and I set posts for a pen a couple weeks ago and yesterday we went goat shopping at the ranch of the class teacher. He specialized in meat goats, but had a variety if milk goats too. I have a goat cheese obsession but would like to have non-goaty milk for my kids too. I wanted doelings although i know it will be a couple years for milk. Prior to the class I had thought I wanted Oberhasli goats, but the teacher loved Nubians. Then there's the farm visit with the kids and my kids. There were no Oberhasli does, only weathers so...here's the goats that caught my attention and why.... I went looking for 2 goats, but three are at the top of my list and then a couple others... First there is a Lamancha Toggengurg cross, which was not at all what I went looking for as I have heard Lamanches milk is great but have thought they look silly without ears and I have heard Toggenberg milk is too goaty, but...she was so sweet and beautiful and followed us everywhere. Second, there was only one batch, triplets, of Nubian kids, 2 girls. The runt is the cutiess, I think, she's all black with a few brown markings. He said she's eating great but he would like to leaving her milking for another month, which is not a problem. I do want a Nubian for their butter fat, is it bad to want the runt? Third, a beautiful beautiful Alpine. She hasn't been handled as much, but she is beautiful and some of my favorite artisan cheeses are made with Alpine milk. Others that caught my eye, is a sweet but not as pretty full blood Lamancha, and a wild but beautiful beautiful yearling that is half Oberhasli and half Nubian. What do you all think about these breeds? He said he'd give me a deal because I picked a crossbreed and the runt and $350 for the 3. Ahh...tell me what you all think! Thanks!

[FrogTacos]

Welcome to goats, and welcome to the forum! I hope you realize we are all horrid enablers. I say get them all!

[Alice In TX/MO]

I'd pass on the Toggenberg, but that's just me.

If you get the runt, you may have to get a mini-buck of some breed for her later on.

I've got a motley crew. One Alpine, one Mini-Alpine, one Mini-Mancha, one LaMancha/Saanen cross. Buck is LaMancha/Saanen/Alpine. Also have a Mini-Mancha buck.

Have a registered Alpine buckling reserved for next spring.

One of these days, maybe I'll have just one breed. Maybe.

[CaliannG]

I breed Alpines, and of course love them. Their graceful, antelope-like form, beautiful colors and markings, wonderful production and sweet, sweet milk!

HOWEVER, I would not suggest a "wild" goat if you are just getting started. It takes time and effort to get an un-tamed goat gentle and easy on the milkstand, and being new to goats, I would hate for you to get discouraged, or get turned off from the breed, just because your first one gave you grief.

Toggenburgs were originally bred for "strong" tasting milk, not necessary "goaty" tasting. There IS a difference. However, those are Swiss Toggenburgs. Most of the U.S. Toggenburgs have lost that strong-tasting milk from spending years being bred for for production and show. Early on, of course, they were bred into our existing goats to work up to purebred status, so there is a little bit of other breeds in our U.S. Toggenburgs. I have yet to have "goaty" tasting Toggenburg milk, and a local lady breeds them.

High butterfat is good for making cheeses if your mind is production oriented. It does, of cuorse, take fewer gallons of milk to make 5 lbs of cheese if the milk is from a Nubian, Lamancha, Nigerian, Mini, etc., than if the milk is from an Alpine, a Toggenburg, or a Saanen. But that doesn't mean that you can't make perfectly great any-kind-of cheese from a higher production, lower butterfat breed. The butterfat numbers only really mean something if you are making a LOT of cheese on a commercial production scale. For the home cheesemaker, does it really matter if 2 gallons, or 2 1/2 gallons, to make a pound of cheese?

On goat milk: If you and your family prefer whole milk from the grocery store, you will ADORE the sweet richness of goat milk. However, if you and your family tend to buy skim, 1%, or 2% milk from the store, you won't like goat milk. It will taste too thick and as if sugar was added to it if you are accustomed to those kinds of milk.

There is nothing wrong with runts. You often have to wait a little longer to breed them, to give them time to make breeding weight, but they often give richer milk.

If I were you, I'd pick the friendliest, easiest to handle, goats out of the herd to start with, regardless of breed. Your first experience will be better with very tame, sweet animals, than anything else, no matter what their color or the status of their ears are. There is plenty of time, later, to decide upon your favorite breed once you are more knowledgeable about the care of goats.

I would also start with adult goats, if I were you. Kids need a range of things while they are still growing, and can fall ill and die from so many things that someone with experience in goats would notice right off and know how to treat before it becomes life threatening, but that someone new to goats could easily miss until it is too late.

Also, does this gentleman test his goats for CAE and CL? Those two diseases are common in many goat herds, but especially meat goat herds, and both are incurable. You will save yourself and your daughter a lot of heartache if you start off with tested and clean goats. CL and CAE don't kill instantly, but often goats that have those diseases will have their lifespans cut in half from the disease.

[JBarGFarmKeeper]

There are folks on here with all of those breeds and mixes of each and you are going to hear loads of things like...

"Lamanchas are the BEST. Wonderful loving personalities they have. I have Lamanchas giving over 5% BF on milk test."

"Nubians are Beautiful! They tend to be a louder breed but do give rich milk. My issue is they don't tend to milk LONG (maybe 6 to 8 months) while I have several Lamanchas that are still giving over 1/2 a gallon and they freshened in spring of 2011."

You'll have to listen to someone else for Alpines, Toggs and Obies. The only goats with ears that point to the sky around here have short legs (Nigerian Dwarves) and I could go on about them ALL DAY!

[Minelson]

Originally Posted by JBarGFarmKeeper

There are folks on here with all of those breeds and mixes of each and you are going to hear loads of things like...
"Lamanchas are the BEST. Wonderful loving personalities they have. I have Lamanchas giving over 5% BF on milk test."
"Nubians are Beautiful! They tend to be a louder breed but do give rich milk. My issue is they don't tend to milk LONG (maybe 6 to 8 months) while I have several Lamanchas that are still giving over 1/2 a gallon and they freshened in spring of 2011."
You'll have to listen to someone else for Alpines, Toggs and Obies. The only goats with ears that point to the sky around here have short legs (Nigerian Dwarves) and I could go on about them ALL DAY!

Shouldn't you be getting ready to go? Get off the computer! I'm leaving right now...

[Colors88]

What a great forum! Your responses have been quick and informative! I'm really excited about this new venture! I LOVE animals and LOVE cheese! I think this might be a perfect way to combine m two passions! FrogTacos, very funny reply! I had so much fun goat shopping and could have easily come home with a herd! There was even a little black weather that had been in a petting zoo all summer that let my 3 year old son drag him by the horns for over an hour and loved every minute....I don't think I could sale or eat something so friendly, but it was hard to say good bye to him. Alice, the Togg was the sweetest, my daughter's in love, and worse case I can get my goaty cheese fix? Caliann, great response! I wanted kids to have them really become a trusting part of the family. I'm loving the lamancha/togg cross merely because she is the sweetest. I'm passing on the Oberhasli/Nubian b/c she's wild. The Alpine did come to us, owner says she's normally friendlier, but we were strangers, and you're an Alpine owner, so you must understand the attraction! I'll have to ask him about diseases, his herd seemed really healthy! JbarG, I know others that are lamancha lovers too, and she was the sweetest! Thanks again for the great feedback!

[JBarGFarmKeeper]

Originally Posted by Minelson

Shouldn't you be getting ready to go? Get off the computer! I'm leaving right now...

One of the "snags" of this week was that MY Escape is STILL in the shop. I took it on Monday for a "tune-up before road trip". Yes, that will be a 1/2 day job.

Friday morning, my husband comes home and says, "It wasn't done this morning." (What he didn't say was...It's not GOING to be done!) So, I found that info out at 4 P.M. Friday! (This is where the TOTAL MELTDOWN came in.)

So, my dear, dear goat friend that lurks on this board is going to drive instead of me. I spent the whole day yesterday doing laundry, packing, picking out clothes, getting the diaper bag ready, gathering toys (and anything else I can think of) to occupy a 6-month-old baby. YES, SHE'S SIX MONTHS OLD. AAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaa! Where does time go?!!

So, HT is my effort at patience! I am organized and ready. (That's my story until I leave the driveway and remember the first thing that I wish I had taken...)

[Colors88]

Typos...sorry! iPad

[FrogTacos]

There are a few different ways to go about buying a starter herd. The most important thing you can do now is research! KNOW what you want, will save money in the long run. Will also spare your kids feelings when you resell a bad initial choice.

With that being said, you just cant go wrong with a herd of Boers.

[CaliannG]

Colors, I promise that the members of this forum read and translate PERFECT typo-ese! If you feel the need to correct, there is an "edit" button at the bottom right side of your post that you can use to edit out typos.

And oh YES, I understand the attraction to Alpines. When I was first going to full-sized goats, both my mother and my DH (Dear Husband) were *mad* for Nubians. We ended up getting a couple of Nubians, but...they just don't do much for me, either in looks or personality. (Mom and DH are *still* mad for Nubians, though). Since it was MY herd and MY goats, gosh-darn-it, and *I* was the one taking care of them and milking them, etc., at the time (DH is now nose deep into them as well), I put my foot down and said it was going to be the breed *I* wanted.

That was when my first Alpines came home, a set of 3 kids from great bloodlines. Then another kid joined them, from even greater bloodlines. A month after that, 2 adult does joined them, from solidly good bloodlines.

Oh, I do adore my Alpines! Their gentle, affectionate personalities, their easy, milkstand manners, their high production...

And the absolutely lovely picture they make in the pasture.

DH finally got his Nubians, a couple of fixer-uppers that are all his to work on and play with. Me, I'll keep to my darling, sweet Alpines.

I am thinking that soon, I will breed for Mini-Alpines. And if I do add another breed, I am thinking I would want to try Saanens. If my latest experiment in A.I. works out, then I will DEFINITELY be doing Mini-Alpines next fall, and start on my own line with that.

[Colors88]

Thanks! Big typos fixed.... I'm really leaning towards trying the mix. I milked a couple of his does, loved it! I know it is a huge commitment, so I'm trying to jump in as informed as possible. That said...two years to plan and over think everything, I was thinking about kidding in he summer, so that if I wanted to go out of town for the weekend with the kids camping so something during summer break, I could let the kid do all the milking. I'm always home during the school year, so a milking schedule would be easy. Caliann, I'll have to post pictures of the Alpine for you, she is BEAUTIFUL! Her mother was already sold and shipped cross country, I think she's something special! He had a 7 yr old Alpine that followed us everywhere too, very sweet! Yeah! This is very exciting!

[Colors88]

I'm not really interested in Saanens although I have also heard great hings about them. High altitude here. I also raise pigs and the white ones burn unless they're inside all of the time, which is just mean. I have heard the same about Saanens. Just extra bits...

[Alice In TX/MO]

Was almost afraid to say this earlier.... baring my soul here.

I love how Saanens look. Even my white no-eared Saanen/LaMancha cross goats are BEAUTIFUL. Elegant.

I almost wish I didn't have Minis. HOWEVER, Cassie (tri colored MiniMancha who had FIVE bucklings) is everyone's favorite. She's kind of independent from the herd, and she is always the first to greet visitors. Her milk is almost like half-and-half. She throws BEAUTIFUL kids, but out of the ten she's had in three years of kidding, nine were bucklings, and the female doesn't have proper girl parts. Lemon is my Mini-Alpine, and she gives more milk and has a better udder and teats than anyone else in the herd.

HOWEVER, I really really like full size goats.

My two Alpine/Saanen cross girls are white with upright ears, and they are beautiful and sweet. Wonderful temperaments. I'm hoping their second freshening in the spring causes their teats to get a bit bigger.

My full blood Alpine is herd queen and semi-retired. Don't know if I'll breed her again. If I get a nice buckling from LoneStarChic, I will surely ponder this.

In Texas, I left behind one of the LaMancha/Saanen crosses and a full blood LaMancha doe for my neighbors/renters to milk this summer. Good does.

If I was going to get rid of all the goats (which is NOT going to happen) and start over, I think it would be really nice (good blood lines and probably expensive) Alpines with a couple of Saanen does thrown in. I'd pass on the Minis.

But.... that's not going to happen.

[CaliannG]

Remember that in a good, healthy, disease-free herd, 7 years old is near the prime of life for a milking doe. (They are considered at their prime at 6 years old)

There are plusses and minuses to summer kidding. The plusses are that, depending upon where you live, you don't have to worry about freezing temperatures and trying to make it out to the barn during a snow storm. The minuses are that for many breeds, and depending upon where you live, you have to use special hormone shots and inserts just to get them to come into estrus during late winter and early spring, to GET summer kids.

However, dairy breeds milk for 8-10 months, normally. You might want to schedule your kiddings for spring, instead, so that you can be there for kidding time, and since your does will be milking through summer anyway, you can plan your getaways and vacations for a time when the kids are large and healthy, and weaned already, the does are still milking, but everything is already routine so your youngling will be unlikely to have to deal with any emergencies while you are gone.

I like to schedule my kiddings for early spring. That way, the does are dried off during the worst of winter, and I don't have to attempt to milk when I have icicles for fingers. I am sure my does appreciate it too, as who wants to have cold hands on their udder in the middle of winter?

Also, we ALWAYS appreciate pictures on this forum! In fact, when you get your goats home, you'll be REQUIRED to post pictures, to prove that you did, indeed, get goats. Without pictures, it didn't happen! LOL

[Colors88]

I'm 6'2...so minis are out. New to goats, but I think the Alpine is bred well. If she wasn't, I can't imagine someone spending so much money to ship the mom. I'm getting the discount on the other two, she'd be the most expensive one I'm looking at buying. Lots of Alpine lovers here....must mean something!

[LFRJ]

My only advice - beauty is as beauty does (on our farm). I don't particularly like the look of our dairy gals, but I can't complain a shaving about the quality and quantity of milk they put out, and wouldn't trade them for the purtiest goats in the world.

So - I guess what I'm saying is, after reading your post a 2nd/3rd time - evaluate carefully your goals. If good looks are important, weigh this factor in...and yes, this IS an important AND valid feature for many.

If good milk for your purposes trumps eye appeal (as it did with us), focus on the output and not on the canvas.

[Alice In TX/MO]

As mentioned above, I lean toward Alpines. I will admit I had one VERY badly bred Alpine doe that I bought in a near-emergency one winter. I needed a doe in milk (in the winter) for a friend who was having trouble swallowing regular food.

She not only had a very bad udder that required a goat bra so she could move around, but she was very very nervous and had claustrophobia. She would NOT go in the small, enclosed milk house. I had to build a milk stand in the open bay of the barn so that she could see out and be calm enough to be milked. Her kids were used only for barbecue, as the genetics weren't wanted in my herd or passed on to others.

One thing I've learned over the almost six years that I've had goats is that it's worth it to pay more for good genetics. We got into goats by accident, then got a few good ones, and we've been breeding carefully since about year two or three. It's worth it to have GOOD goats, even if you are just "milking for the house."

[CaliannG]

~laughs~ Alpines are the second most popular breed in the U.S., right behind Nubians. They are THE most popular breed for commercial milk production. This says something, since Saanens, on average, produce more than Alpines, yet in most commercial goat dairies, it is Alpines that you will find in the milking parlor.

I should say, though, that you should not discount minis due to your size. My DH has hands like a Sasquash, yet he has not trouble milking our two Mini-Nubians. There is a lady in Brenham, Texas, JoAnne Jelke of Jobi Dairy, who has spent 25 years developing a line of Nigerian Dwarfs that, in her words, "Even a man can milk". In my opinion, she has succeeded admirably.

Teat size and ease of milking can vary from line to line, and even on individual animals. I have seen Nubians who had teats that MY little hands (size 6 1/2 glove, or "small" in women's garden gloves) were cramping up just thinking about milking them. I have also seen Nigerians that had teats that made me think, "Will my hand FIT around that?" It really all depends upon the lines of the doe in question, and her orifices, etc.

Also, first time fresheners of ANY breed can have itsy-bitsy teats that make you groan just thinking about them!

[Manchamom]

I think colors was saying to let the goat kid do the milking while he's camping?
Anyway, there's no reason to leave your goats at home. They love camping and hiking.