Diff Between Replamin/Replamin Plus & Deficient Preg Doe

CageFreeFamily · #1 10/04/12, 02:00 PM

After reading all the Replamin results we're going to go ahead and order some for our three goats. We have one of them in mind specifically. We just got her a week ago. She's a 4 yr old Nubian due to deliver in November. When she arrived I found out that she has been in boarding for many months and was surprised to see her coat. Her hair is absolutely nothing like our LaManchas. Her's is as coarse as a boar hair brush, patchy and exceedingly dull. It makes me worry about what conditions she was living in and how she may (or may not!) have been supported before and during gestation.

I'd like to get her started on Replamin for sure, and need to know the difference between Replamin and Replamin Plus.

I'm also wondering if you have an suggestions for supporting her and her possibly nutritionally deficient kids. When she arrived she set immediately to eating at a pace that I have never before seen in a goat. We couldn't help but watch her graze for a few days because she did none of that picking and choosing. She just stuck her nose to the ground and speed ate like a voracious machine. She seems less starving now, and happier, but I worry about her recovery from gestation as well as the development of the kids.

Thoughts?

TIA,
Aimee

Backfourty,MI. · #2 10/04/12, 02:04 PM

I can't remember the difference in the Replamin & the Replamin Plus without going to their site to look it up & compare but all of us here are using the Replamin Plus.

Sounds like your new girl wasn't getting enough to eat where she was boarded or that's what it sounds like.
Any grain changes you make do it very gradual for a goat. Might start adding a little alfalfa pellets daily too to make sure she's getting enough calcium before the kids come.
I would also make sure she has access to baking soda 24/7 as well as a good hay 24/7.

Is she up to date on her CD & T vaccine? That should be given about 3-4 weeks before kidding so the babies benefit from the vaccine for the first few weeks too.

CageFreeFamily · #3 10/04/12, 02:28 PM

I finally found a PDF with the differences outlined. They are as follows:

REPLAMIN GEL

Guaranteed Analysis:
(Minimum per 5 cc serving)
Magnesium, min.................................91.2 mg
Potassium, min...................................91.2 mg
Cobalt, min...........................................2.3 mg
Copper, min........................................34.8 mg
Manganese, min.................................14.3 mg
Selenium, min.....................................0.34 mg
Zinc, min.............................................34 .8 mg
Vitamin E, min......................................45.2 IU
Ingredients:
Magnesium Amino Acid Chelate*, Potassium Amino Acid Complex*, Cobalt Sulfate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate*, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate*, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate*, Sodium Selenite, Vitamin E Supplement, Vegetable Soy Oil, Polysorbate 80, Sodium Bicarbonate and Anise Flavor.

REPLAMIN PLUS GEL

Guaranteed Analysis:
(Minimum per 5 cc serving)
Magnesium, min....................................61.8 mg
Potassium, min......................................61.8 mg
Cobalt, min..............................................2 .6 mg
Copper, min...........................................33.8 mg
Manganese, min....................................16.3 mg
Selenium, min........................................0.39 mg
Zinc, min............................................... .39.3 mg
Vitamin A, min.....................................86,637 IU
Vitamin D, min.......................................2,167 IU
Vitamin E, min..........................................324 IU
Vitamin B-6, min................................. ....3.7 mg
Vitamin B-12, min........................... ....97.4 mcg
Biotin, min............................................... 0.3 mg
Choline, min..........................................26.8 mg
d-Calcium Pantothenate, min...............39.6 mg
Folic Acid, min ........................................0.3 mg
Niacin, min............................................25. 0 mg
Riboflavin, min.........................................9.7 mg
Thiamine, min........................................65.0 mg
Ingredients:
Magnesium Amino Acid Chelate*, Potassium Amino Acid Complex*, Cobalt Sulfate, Copper Amino Acid Chelate*, Manganese Amino Acid Chelate*, Zinc Amino Acid Chelate*, Sodium Selenite, Dried Aspergillus Oryzae Fermenta- tion Extract, Vitamin A Acetate, D-Activated Animal Sterol (Source of Vitamin D-3), dl-alpha Tocopherol Acetate (Source of Vitamin E Activity), Niacin, Choline Bitartrate, d-Cal Pantothenate, Ascorbic Acid, Riboflavin Supplement, Thiamine HCl, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Pyridoxine HCl, Biotin, Folic Acid, Silicon Dioxide, Vegetable Soy Oil, Sucrose, Corn Starch, Dextrose, Maltodextrin, Glycerin, Guar Gum, Lecithin, Polysorbate 80, and Anise Flavor.

There are considerably more additives in the PLUS, and some of them give me pause.

The PLUS has a greater overall number of different supplements, but they are in lower dose than the Regular gel.

I've seen several posts where the poster is definitely using the regular gel, many that specify the PLUS, and many more that don't specify at all.

I am leaning toward the regular gel just because I would prefer to avoid several of the ingredients in the PLUS, but I want to make sure that the dosing is the same, etc.

Minelson · #4 10/04/12, 04:11 PM

Hmmm....thanks for posting that. I know the regular costs alot less. There sure is a lot more Vit E in the Plus though...
Which ingredients give you pause? Just curious

Backfourty,MI. · #5 10/04/12, 04:18 PM

I don't see ingredients that worry me about the plus. I see there are a lot more vitamins in the plus like all the B vitamins & Thiamin, Vit. D, Folic Acid & Ribolflavon.

What ingredients worry you?

I think the original poster that started using the Replamin & told all of us about it I'm pretty sure has been using the Plus & that's the one that got her very good results.
I am going to stay with the plus.

I would think the dosage would be the same which ever 1 you decide to go with.

Alice In TX/MO · #6 10/04/12, 04:49 PM

One thing that I wonder about the Plus is the incredibly high Vitamin A level.

CageFreeFamily · #7 10/04/12, 04:50 PM

Silicon Dioxide has been shown to be relatively harmless when used in small amounts, but questions were raised about the possible effects of using larger doses over extended periods of time. ,

Vegetable Soy Oil is likely from a GMO source since not otherwise stated as much of the human/animal food sources of soy are GMO

Sucrose, separated from it's original whole food source can have adverse effects on bones and the ability to use the minerals needed for healthy bones/teeth. Also, the origin of the sucrose is unknown and likely to be from GMO sugar beets.

Corn Starch, again with the GMO sourcing. Much of the corn, soy, sugar and other frequently used additives in the US are sourced from experimental, unlabled GMO sources.

Dextrose - another name for glucose, we're looking at another bastardized sugar. Again with the GMO question.

Maltodextrin- yet ANOTHER (unnecessary) sugar pulled from unknown sources

Glycerin - is a chemically produced syrup made from fat and water and regularly used as a solvent or plasticizers. It effects everything from the enamel of teeth to artificial dehydration of the body and the skin

Guar Gum - is a very serious thickening agent that comes in many grades. Which grade is used here is not disclosed. There are no thorough or longitudinal studies of any of these ingredient's effects on animals. However guar gum can cause dangerous fluctuations in glucose levels (not helped by all the sugars added to this formula) and can prevent the intestines from absorbing vital nutrients effectively.

Lecithin - the source is not given, but this is most likely soy lecithin (gmo again) and is a created product intended to increase viscosity of foods (think margarine) or as an emulsifier (to keep oils and waters from separating) A 1986 animal study in the "International Journal of Developmental Neuroscience" found that perinatal exposure to soy lecithin altered brain and nerve development in rats. With few other studies the jury is out on this one as well, GMO sourcing aside.

I was diagnosed with Fibromyalgia 20 years ago and after 16 years of struggling I finally started looking, closely, at what I was eating and coming into contact with and found that removing things like this (that are often labeled as "all natural" and are widely used) from my diet and home eliminated most of my symptoms, and symptoms in my husband and kids that weren't even noticed until they were gone.

I just think that the fewer additives the better in this case. If the Replamin regular gel works then I would choose it for this reason.

I guess I'm feeling like the things that I don't want in me I don't want in my food producing animals.

LoneStrChic23 · #8 10/04/12, 05:01 PM

I'm the one who has the regular Replamin.

I found it in an old stash of horse meds my mom had tucked away. I gave them one dose while I waited for my Replamin Plus to arrive. Every dose after the 1st one has been with the Replamin Plus.

LoneStrChic23 · #9 10/04/12, 05:05 PM

Aimee, the "junk" you're worried about in the Plus is still in the Regular.... I haven't looked at my tube lately, but I know the regular contains at least some of those junk items.

CageFreeFamily · #10 10/04/12, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneStrChic23

Aimee, the "junk" you're worried about in the Plus is still in the Regular.... I haven't looked at my tube lately, but I know the regular contains at least some of those junk items.

According to the manf. Tech Sheets the only ingredient of questiont that they share is the Soy Oil.

ETA: replamin.com/Replamin%20Tech%20Sheets.pdf

CaliannG · #11 10/04/12, 07:57 PM

Aimee I am the one that originally posted about using Replamin Plus.

Even after using the first tube, and getting a tube of plain Replamin to replace it because it was cheaper, I started sliding back into signs of deficiency. So I went and looked up all of that stuff.

The reason the Replamin Plus works better than the regular Replamin is because vitamins and minerals are synergistic, and work in symbiosis with one another. The B-vitamins allow for faster absorption of the chelated copper. The Vitamin A allows for better uptake of Zinc, etc., etc. Since the gel provides the MOST bio-available form of the minerals, it makes sense that the vitamins that work with them be supplied as well, to facilitate use in the body.

You already know that you could pump selenium down a selenium deficient goat until it went toxic, and none of it would actually do any GOOD unless the goat had enough Vit. E in it's body to make use of the selenium...well, the same is true for most other minerals as well.

The Plus has both the minerals available to them, and the companion vitamins and other elements that helps them utilize the minerals.

Yes, it contains some things many of us are trying to avoid. HOWEVER, it is dosed at 5cc per week. The amount of Maltodextrin and Dextrose in a single 5cc dose is minute, as well as it only being given once a week.

This is not a feed, where you are giving pounds of the stuff per day, and therefore if it contains 1% of Something Uncertain, that can easily build up over time. There is likely just as much corn starch in anything you might take in pill form, since it is used as a binding agent in almost all pills, from children's aspirin, to prescription diabetic medications.

I understand wanting to eliminate GMO products, and other questionable things, from one's diet, and I applaud it. I also do not thing that just because we cannot truly escape GMO products, and other questionable things, completely, that it is any reason to not worry about it and to immediately go inhale an entire box of Great Value Brand Corn Dogs.

I applaud that you wish to be careful in what you give your food animals, and yourself, and that you research the contents and are aware of their origins.

That being the case, while I agree that it would be nice to have non-GMO options for everything, when I need an aspirin, I *need* one, and I am not going to worry about if the corn starch in it to make it a pill is from GMO sources or not.

So, perhaps you should consider a compromise, since she is in such bad shape, as well as some advise to help her out:

Get the small Tube of Replamin Plus. With as bad a shape as you say she is in, she needs the vitamins as well. 3 doses, 3 days in a row, then weekly doses starting four days after that.

When that tube is done, switch to the regular Replamin.

As for feed supplements, especially if she was neglected, she needs protein for this last month of gestation. For herself, some fats, and most definitely, some calcium, would both help her, and help the kids in utero.

I would give her a handful of BOSS this evening. In the morning, I'd give her another handful of BOSS. Tomorrow evening, I would give her two handfuls of BOSS, and go up a handful every evening, until she was at about a pound per day. That will supplement her protein and fat intake during this last month.

You can test to see if she is calcium deficient. Make Doe Gatorade. 1 pint of CMPK oral solution, 1/8th of a cup of natural molasses, mixed with a quart of warm water. Offer it to her. If she sucks it down like she is dying of thirst, then licks the bottom of the bucket, then you need to consider daily calcium supplements. If she drinks a bit of it, but leaves half of it in the bucket, she is fine.

I give Doe Gatorade to does just after kidding, as well, to boost their calcium and help their milk come in.

I hope this helps some.

CageFreeFamily · #12 10/04/12, 08:53 PM

Fantastic post CaliannG. Thank you.

It is very helpful to know your results with the regular gel, and given the choice between getting her what she needs with a few things I don't want and not getting her what she needs, I agree that the Replamin Plus is likely the best choice for her in her current state.

I will go ahead with exactly what you suggested and begin her on the Plus and try switching off of it later when she is fully recovered from her whole ordeal (whatever it may have been, and her impending delivery).

In the meantime I'll take a leisurely look at using herbal/weed based extractions to obtain the right dosage of the vitamins missing in the regular gel.

Right now she's getting free access to grass hay in addition to quality grazing on land that has good amts of selenium and copper, and alfalfa in the morning and evening with her grain and minerals.

I will add in the BOSS and try her on the Gatorade straightaway.

The Tin Mom · #13 10/04/12, 09:31 PM

Our goaties consider BOSS the most incredible treat in the world! And, my wonderful friend says that BOSS is a natural worm preventative.... (Not that it matters in some climates... sigh. I am jealous!

)

Backfourty,MI. · #14 10/04/12, 10:02 PM

You should take a picture of her now & then in a month & see what a great job you did with your new doe since I know there will be a noticable difference now that she is with a family who wants to take care of her.

pictures after the babies come to please!

AuntKitty · #15 10/05/12, 12:09 PM

Is there enough selenium in the Replamin so she wouldn't need the regular Bose shot before kidding? Is New Mexico a selenium deficient area?

Just thinking...

Kitty

CageFreeFamily · #16 10/05/12, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuntKitty

Is there enough selenium in the Replamin so she wouldn't need the regular Bose shot before kidding? Is New Mexico a selenium deficient area?

Just thinking...

Kitty

Our soil here in the canyon is rich in selenium and copper, and I know several have posted that they don't do the BoSe shot now that they use replamin, but considering her condition, I feel unsure of whether or not she needs the shot.

I would definitely take advice on that!

I will also post before and after pics. I'm so worried about these kids though. I just don't know how bad her conditions may have been for all this time. She's due in less than 6 weeks... we think... owner wasn't certain of dates.

CaliannG · #17 10/05/12, 07:40 PM

The county where I lived in Colorado is a high copper and selenium area. Just one county north of that, where thaiblue lives, is copper and selenium deficient. And she was not that far away from me.

Selenium is so very, very tricky, though...there is a fine line between not enough, and too much...and I don't know what she was eating before she came to you. Was she on pasture at all? Hay? Did they just feed her a cup of Horse-and-Mule once a day and keep her locked up in a stall? Where did what feed that she got come from? Was it grown locally, or shipped from elsewhere that might have severe deficiencies?

Since you don't live in a selenium deficient area, I would have some care.

How about getting the selenium/Vitamin E paste (which isn't as high a dosage as Bo-Se) and giving her a dose of that to up her levels a little bit more? Then, just keep her on your selenium rich pasture, and add, say, a Vit. E caplet (human kind, from the grocery store) squeezed on her feed every night so that her body can synthasize all of the selenium she is getting now?

Then, in case problems arise at kidding, keep Bo-Se on hand in doses for the kids. If they are not standing and nursing within an hour after birth, give them selenium shots. Also dose her then, because you will KNOW she is low, and goats put a lot of selenium in their milk.

I can just use the Replamin gel, without a need to Bo-Se in the future, because I live in a high selenium area and the gel has stuff to help them metabolize the selenium in spite of our iron content.

I try not to Bo-Se unless I have to, because a selenium overdose means a dead goat, and dead goats make me really, REALLY sad.