Building a worm resistant herd.

[Kits&Kids]

Im just curious if anyony else has tried to do this.I have not dewormed any of my herd for 5 years. i have culled a few over the past years at first that didnt cut the bill but most have had no problems. My herd only eats pasture from april to oct and then alfalfa hay during cold months.No grain or suplaments. im just curious if anyone else is trying to make their goat herd the best they can be..Im not advocating this to anyone,but it has worked for me here iin the dry front range.

[MaddieLynn]

Do you have dairy or meat goats? There's a major difference between a high producing dairy doe and a meat doe when it comes to stuff like this.

[Kits&Kids]

My goats are f2 down breed from boer and nubian stock.I have breed for the meat market with does that make lots of milk.The camo color can only help with the current trends..

[CaliannG]

Since Nubians are the lowest producing standard size dairy goat, AND they are already dual purpose meat/milk, you are basically breeding meat goats with good udders.

You are also breeding goats that will NOT rob their own bodies to put milk in the bucket. This is a good thing if what you wish is a goat that will sustain itself of quality pasture, and simply give you what they have in surplus.

My LEAST producing Alpine puts a gallon per day in the bucket. If I stop feeding her concentrates, she will STILL put a gallon per day in the bucket, and eventually become an emaciated goat. She will rob her own muscle tissues and bones to keep filling that milk bucket.

Goat milk is high in copper and selenium; much higher than cows milk. If I stop giving them supplements, they will still put the same amount of copper and selenium into their milk, until they simply run out of it in their bodies and die of the deficiency.

It is the difference between having a breed of goat that thinks of themselves first, and therefore if they run into caloric or mineral deficiencies will simply stop producing milk (like your Boer crosses), and having a breed of goat that is going to milk no matter HOW bad off they are, and will only, at best, have lower production if they are not getting enough to maintain themselves and their production. At worst, they will kill themselves milking for you.

Most of us with dairy goats do not have the luxury of sustaining our animals on just pasture and hay.

[Kits&Kids]

hey their caliaan. I appreciate your opinion, but i dont understand what your saying about this topic. i raise meaty ,healthy goats on minimal inputs without problems weather you think so or not.You focus on milk while i focus a multipurpous goat.

[CaliannG]

~smiles~ I was saying that you can do so because of their breed and because they are being produced for meat.

You can produce meat goats on less effort, supplements, etc., than you can a dairy goat, hon. There are LOTS of folks around me that produce great market goats every year on nothing but quality pasture and hay.

There are meat herds in West Texas that only SEE humans a few times per year.

What I am saying is that you cannot keep a high-producing dairy goat (see that gallon-per-day-in-the-milk-bucket remark above) on the same management and expect the same results. Producing milk requires FAR more caloric and mineral intake than producing and maintaining muscle mass. For one, none of your Boer crosses are gaining 8.2 pounds PER DAY, every day, in muscle mass, for 305 days out of every year.

Also, your market goats are terminal pretty young. Most of your bucks will never see the age of 2, much less the age of 12, before they are on someone's table. If you cull heavily, you will likely be replacing your does at the age of 6 or 7 with their daughters and sending them to the market as well.

A dairy doe is in her *prime* at 6 or 7.

So, I am really happy that you have a herd of meaty, healthy goats on pasture. I am simply saying that such a practice will not work for a high producing dairy goat who is putting her own *weight* in the milk bucket every two weeks, and will be expected to do so for 10 months out of every year, for 10 years or more.

That's why dairy goats need all of those concentrates and supplements, etc. A dairy doe is producing the equivalent of a finished market wether in protein, fat, and solids every month. A meat doe is producing that every year.

Big difference there.

[Kits&Kids]

Thanks for your insight.No goat is going to gain 8.2 lbs peer day.That must be a mistake on your part. This thread was about worm resistante,healthy goats. my years of crossing this breed has made a healthy goat that needs nothing from you to be a top producer.

[CaliannG]

~sighs~ I am either communicating poorly, or you are looking to take offense.

8.2 lbs is what one, single gallon of milk weighs. That gallon of milk is the near equivalent of approximately the same weight of muscle in a meat goat. Which is why I made that comparison.

I am not dissing your goats. I am not dissing your management of your *meat* goats. I am simply stating that the same practice cannot work on high producing *dairy* goats BECAUSE pouring our 8.2 pounds of milk in a bucket takes the same amount of calories, minerals, etc., as putting 8.2 pounds of muscle mass on a meat goat.

Now please re-read and look at the post from a different angle.

I know lots of folks down here that are working on breeding high weight gain, good producing MEAT goats on nothing but quality pasture and they, like you, are doing very well at it. The very minute a person tried to do the same management on good producing DAIRY goats, they are going to have sick or dead goats, because dairy goats are producing more milk than meat goats are producing muscle mass, pound for pound.

Am I making more sense? Writing is such an inadequate form of communication and it is sometimes difficult to get things across.

[The Tin Mom]

Originally Posted by CaliannG

~sighs~ I am either communicating poorly, or you are looking to take offense.

8.2 lbs is what one, single gallon of milk weighs. That gallon of milk is the near equivalent of approximately the same weight of muscle in a meat goat. Which is why I made that comparison.

I am not dissing your goats. I am not dissing your management of your *meat* goats. I am simply stating that the same practice cannot work on high producing *dairy* goats BECAUSE pouring our 8.2 pounds of milk in a bucket takes the same amount of calories, minerals, etc., as putting 8.2 pounds of muscle mass on a meat goat.

Now please re-read and look at the post from a different angle.

I know lots of folks down here that are working on breeding high weight gain, good producing MEAT goats on nothing but quality pasture and they, like you, are doing very well at it. The very minute a person tried to do the same management on good producing DAIRY goats, they are going to have sick or dead goats, because dairy goats are producing more milk than meat goats are producing muscle mass, pound for pound.

Am I making more sense? Writing is such an inadequate form of communication and it is sometimes difficult to get things across.

Caliann,

I have deleted two posts and hoped that you would answer before I had a chance to do so because you are communicating very well; in fact, much better than I would have. It is too bad that facial expressions, tone of voice, etc. can not be conveyed in writing.

[Kits&Kids]

I thank you for your explanation of your stance. i misunderstood what you said. Milk in the pail means nothing to me.ROG is my bottom line. If a doe can make lots of milk on minimal inputs and raise a superior kid even you can appreciate that. A 100$ 5-6 month old kid is good money if you dont have to pay for any inputs.I have had part of my brain cut out of my head so please understand that.

[CaliannG]

~smiles~ I understand. Thank you for re-reading.

~grinz and winks~ Ya gotta know when you post here, if you are talking about management practices, that its us dairy folks too. Lots of newbies on here. Can you imagine some poor new person reading your management practices and thinking it would work for the Saanens they are getting?

For goats that are meat goats, that have only been crossed with Nubians for a bit higher milk production, consumed by dam-raised kids, it works great. Especially combined with other, meat goat management practices.

And yes, even we dairy folks breed for worm resistance. We have managed to make hoof rot none-existent in some herds as well. We still have to deal with wormers, however, if for nothing more than the much higher stress our animals are under, physically, than meat goats.

[JBarGFarmKeeper]

Originally Posted by Kits&Kids

Thanks for your insight.No goat is going to gain 8.2 lbs peer day.That must be a mistake on your part. This thread was about worm resistante,healthy goats. my years of crossing this breed has made a healthy goat that needs nothing from you to be a top producer.

She's talking about a "gallon" of milk a day (i.e. 8.2 pounds a day...not a mistake)...

ETA: Whew! Made it through the whole thing, Caliann, you did great! It's not the same, it's not the same, just keep repeating this ....it's not the same.

[Kits&Kids]

I must say i realy appreiate your knowledge. Dairy are different. We all have a plan. When the apoclypse hits(haha) i think my goats will strive.

[Goat Servant]

Caliann thank you for your clarifications, I too was shocked at the 8.2 till you pointed out milk.
Ya'll can see my head is not in the bucket.

[CaliannG]

~smiles~ It is something I have been thinking about. A LOT of newbies come on here with sick goats because they got some dairy goats, talked to a bunch of folks nearby who raise meat goats, and thought that the same management practices would work.

There have even been some meat goat people who, deciding to get a few dairies for milk, have ended up with sick goats because they run their dairy goats the same way they run their meat goats.

Folks, especially folks new to dairy goats, need to understand that because the goals and outputs are so vastly different, as well as centuries of breeding, they might as well be dealing with completely different animals!

There is a joke in LaManchas that a gopher can take the ears off of an elephant. Well, a Boer can take the udder (and production) off of a Saanen! Even an F1 cross of dairy by meat will cut down the difference in production by 75% from a Saanen, as well as cut down on the months of production.

But lots of folks cross Nubians into a meat herd. The result is a fast-gaining meat goat with a healthier udder and a LITTLE bit (about 10%) higher milk production.

Now, for number crunching.

If your average meat doe produces twins every year, and say they are both for market, and you raise those twins 100lbs each (to make my math easier) and slaughter them. Say you get a super high dress out weight of 65%, You get 130lbs of meat. If you remove water, the average amount of water we carry is 70%, but lets drop that to 60% , then you end up with 78lb of solids, mainly fat and proteins.

Now, let's look at a poor producing standard size dairy doe. She puts out a half gallon a day, like clockwork. That is 1,250.5 pounds of milk per year. Milk is 87% water, so, that comes to 162.57lbs per year of solids, mainly fat and protein.

A POOR milker is putting over TWICE as much protein and fat on the table as a GOOD meat goat. A GOOD milker will put FOUR TIMES the amount of fat and protein on the table as a good meat goat.

Is it any wonder that dairy goats need concentrates and supplements to do this? A dairy goat is working at least twice as hard as a meat goat to produce, but they have the same size rumens, and can only stuff so much browse into them. Therefore, the need for concentrates and mineral supplements is obvious.

As for breeding for thriftiness, efficiency, and resistance to parasites and diseases, we have been doing that for centuries. We have also learned management practices that help with these things. Coccidia prevention does wonders for thriftiness and efficiency. Giving the animals space to roam, or practicing rotational grazing, cuts down exponentially on parasite loads.

As for prepping, which I, myself, am definitely a prepper, this is why I research things like those fodder-producing systems, and floating hydroponics. How to do a lot in a very little space with not much technology is my goal.

I get the kinks worked out on the floating hydroponics, and I should be able to grow all of the oats, sunflowers, etc., that a herd of 30 high producing dairy goats need on top of a 150'x150' pond, which is also producing a thousand pounds of fish per year.

It's just too bad that I am not fond of fish.

[Cliff]

I thought the op was just asking about breeding in worm resistance?

[Goat Servant]

Oh Cliff. *sigh* You know asking any question here is opening a can of them.

[The Tin Mom]

Originally Posted by Goat Servant

Oh Cliff. *sigh* You know asking any question here is opening a can of them.

[Dragonid]

Originally Posted by Cliff

I thought the op was just asking about breeding in worm resistance?

I thought so too

[Alice In TX/MO]

With "refugia", you try to maintain as many low resistant worms in your animals and pastures as possible. This is done by ONLY DE-WORMING when it is absolutely necessary and culling the goats that have the biggest problem with worms. 20% of your goats, produce 80% of the worm problem.

Refugia