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  #1  
Old 09/17/12, 01:04 PM
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Utah
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Liver mineral biopsy results

I sent liver samples in on two 4-5 year old does. The samples were put in a 20 goat group. They were "diagnosed" on a bell curve. The only abnormality was one sample was low in manganes.

If anyone cares to see the numbers I will be happy to type them in. If not I will be happy not to type them in.

My thoughts and conclusions are that I'm happy to know that my numbers are normal and healthy. However I would have appreciated knowing whether they were at the high end of normal or the low end.

Also, because they were in a group of goats I do not know and were graded on a curve I would have liked to have known the conditions and results of the other goats in the group.

I am unaware of what a goats levels should be. Just because my goats were normal that doesn't mean that the other 18 goats weren't severely deficient so mine scored in the normal range even if they are deficient also just not as badly. Bell curve testing has never impressed me.

I paid $50 a goat for these tests. Should I be feeling frustrated with my results or should I just let it go and be happy that my goats are "normal"? Do you think they would give me the results of my group if I were to call? Does anyone know where I can find what a goat's mineral levels should be? If this wasn't done on a bell curve I probably wouldn't be concerned.

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  #2  
Old 09/17/12, 01:15 PM
Alice In TX/MO's Avatar
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A bell curve of 20 normal goats? A bell curve of 20 goats whose samples just happened to come in that day?

I'd like to know more info, too! (especially for $50/goat)

Call and be very polite and ask for more.

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  #3  
Old 09/17/12, 03:27 PM
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Utah
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Wow. Bio-Tracking, WSU and WADLL will now have all of my business. Dr. Jeff Hall from UVDL was very unpleasant. Maybe he was having a bad day. The first thing I asked was, after pleasantries, my vet told me you use a 20 goat sample and then interpret your findings using a bell curve? Is that correct? He didn't answer that but told me he uses standards from many PUBLISHED studies. I told him that I understood that and wasn't disputing his findings but I didn't think 20 goats was a representative sample. He proceeded to tell me why his findings are correct and started dropping the names of the authors who's studies he uses. I told him again that I understood that blah, blah, blah. Anyways after me asking about the sample size again for the third time he yelled at me that he gets 7000 samples from all over the United States so his findings are correct and he has no idea where my vet got that number. I stated that if he would have told me that in the beginning the conversation would have been much quicker because that was my original question. He then yelled at me that that was NOT my original question is was where he found his ranges. I laughed and told him that was a valid question also. He never gave me range values. He then informed me that since my animals were within normal range I just needed to accept that. He did tell me he would put me on hold while he WALKED back to his lab and then give me the ranges of EACH mineral and the reference study. We could spend 15 minutes discussing EACH mineral. He was very self-important and condescending. Which was fine until the yelling started. He needs to work on his people skills. The woman who answered the phone, Debbie, was extremely pleasant.

Wow. Just wow. Some people only hear what they want. He must be having a lot of people trying to refute his finding. I'm completely happy with his findings based on a 7000 sample sized group. I would still like to know average ranges but I have a feeling I'm not going to get them.

I spent too many years as a foster/proctor parent to ever engage in an argument with an irrational person. You just say I understand and repeat your original query. I heard that Langston University is doing some great goat mineral studies. I'll send any livers to them from now on.

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Old 09/17/12, 04:52 PM
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You know, I was going to say that about sample size. LOL

Too bad he was a horse's patootie.

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  #5  
Old 09/17/12, 05:05 PM
 
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A hundred dollars too bad. Maybe he thought I was a spy and wanted to steal his ranges so I could start my own liver biopsy business. My Dh said my first mistake was not having him call. A lot of men here adopt that "Don't you need to bake a bundt cake or something" attitude. It's frustrating. DH would have been clueless though.

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Old 09/17/12, 05:38 PM
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After you said that about Bundt cakes, I checked your location. Um.... that's unfortunate.

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  #7  
Old 09/17/12, 05:48 PM
 
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Yes. Yes it is. They're not all like that though. A lot but not all.

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Old 09/17/12, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andabigmac View Post
A hundred dollars too bad. Maybe he thought I was a spy and wanted to steal his ranges so I could start my own liver biopsy business. My Dh said my first mistake was not having him call. A lot of men here adopt that "Don't you need to bake a bundt cake or something" attitude. It's frustrating. DH would have been clueless though.
I find this happens to me in the Midwest...at O'Reilly's (the auto part store). They've insulted me twice in the last week. (At two different locations) The last time my husband had gone to get something to purchase while I asked a question. The man behind the counter was unkind to me. I just turned around and spotted my husband with his wiper blade in hand. I hollered, "Honey, put that back. We're going to Wal-mart. These folks aren't nice." The store was full of folks. I am a firm believer in taking away your money when you want something to change. And be vocal to potential customers (just as you have been here).
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  #9  
Old 09/18/12, 08:01 AM
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Northwestern, WI
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Andabigmac, what was going on that you had livers tested? This is new to me for goats.

We also have the "bundt cake" boys up here. But I absolutley love the guys that find us nontraditional gals intruiging, you know the ones that actually engage in conversation and help problem solve. This can be humorous when I don't know all the correct terminology!

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Old 09/18/12, 08:45 AM
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Liver testing is the best way to get actual numbers that mean something on mineral levels. Copper, for example, can't be accurately read from blood work.

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  #11  
Old 09/18/12, 09:29 AM
 
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So its just a monitoring tool for some?

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  #12  
Old 09/18/12, 09:44 AM
 
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Yes and they have been conducting a study specifically in our area because we are in one of the poorest regions in the nation soil wise. I was going to send in some replamin livers for comparison next year. Not anymore. That would have been really interesting though. I'm weird because I find stuff like this fascinating.

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  #13  
Old 09/18/12, 12:02 PM
 
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Location: Northwestern, WI
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Are they doing a comparison on findings of liver studies in various geographical areas compared to soil and plant findings? It would be interesting to see how adaptable different species are.

Sine you live in a study area, its too bad the group doing the study couldn't take your livers and save you the cost of testing.

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  #14  
Old 09/18/12, 12:32 PM
 
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I know he said (loudly) that he tests from all of the nation. I know he is concentrating on this area. I'm not calling him back to ask for details. I did find this article that mentions Dr. Hall but wasn't written by him.

Cattle Today: OBTAINING AN ACCURATE PICTURE OF MINERAL STATUS CAN BE COMPLICATED

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  #15  
Old 09/18/12, 12:42 PM
 
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I am new to this - why test livers in clusters at all? Is it to form 'normals?' Could you just have individual livers tested and compared to normals? Or at least your herd by itself without others included? I guess I am wondering what this group testing would tell you about your specific herd.

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  #16  
Old 09/18/12, 01:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by willielisa View Post
I am new to this - why test livers in clusters at all? Is it to form 'normals?' Could you just have individual livers tested and compared to normals? Or at least your herd by itself without others included? I guess I am wondering what this group testing would tell you about your specific herd.
My vet must have misunderstood the sample number. The numbers Dr. Hall uses are from all of the livers he's sampled. That is what I couldn't understand too. I call Dr. Hall for clarification and after our "discussion" he finally gave me the correct sample numbers. The livers were tested individually and the results were compared to all of the other livers he has sampled.
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  #17  
Old 09/18/12, 01:20 PM
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Oh, okay - that makes sense. I would have been mad if I had paid that much and got an average out of 7000! Glad you got the info you needed, and thanks for the tip on who NOT to go to. Customer service speaks volumes.

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