Horny or Not?

Barnhouse · #1 09/14/12, 05:01 PM

Somebody suggested a new thread for this topic so we could hear from you experienced old goats....
Or maybe that should say, you old experienced in goats.

Here's the question:
Keep the horns, or never in a million years will I do that again?

The topic here is GOATS.
(Shame on the rest of you who thought I was referring to something else.)

andabigmac · #2 09/14/12, 05:10 PM

I refuse to comment but I'm going to make some popcorn while I watch the show...

LoneStrChic23 · #3 09/14/12, 05:13 PM

Oh man, do ya really wanna open this can of worms again? It's a highly debated topic here on HT, both sides feeling strongly about their opinions.

For me, and my herd of dairy goats, no horns ever. For our safety & that of my goats (I have cattle panel fencing, horns would get stuck easily). All kids born here are disbudded 4-8 days after birth, and if anyone wants to buy a kid with horns, they have to pay in full & pick it up before disbudding time.

Now, if I had a huge chunk of land, fenced with goat fencing & ran a large meat goat herd that I didn't have to be up close & personal with twice a day, I'd likely leave the horns on them.

Shygal · #4 09/14/12, 05:16 PM

Uh oh..........this is just like asking about Halloween on CF , or vaccinations of children

Barnhouse · #5 09/14/12, 05:17 PM

Hey, I am a goat virgin. I know absolutely nothing about the animal (other than the fact that I like them) and would like to learn a lot about them before taking the plunge.

So let's leave the worms in the can and just tell me what you guys have found out from experience. I'm not here to convince anyone of anything, just looking for info before it butts me in the butt.

Be nice, I am at your mercy!

Barnhouse · #6 09/14/12, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shygal

Uh oh..........this is just like asking about Halloween on CF , or vaccinations of children

That bad, huh? Don't anybody send me hate mail!

LoneStrChic23 · #7 09/14/12, 05:31 PM

lol it only gets ugly sometimes.

No one keeps or raises goats the same way, you have to do what works for YOU. I've owned both horned & hornless..... Issues I've dealt with recently & in the past are what shaped my decision to NEVER own horned animals again.

I'm not properly set up for horned animals & the risk to my munchkins isn't worth it (my daughter almost lost an eye from a sweet lil horned goat we had)....

Others love horns & wouldn't have it any other way.

Perhaps go visit horned herds & hornless herds & see what appeals to you? Reading both sides may help you decide, but if you're new to goats, maybe interacting with both in person will help you more...

CaliannG · #8 09/14/12, 05:32 PM

I do not disbud. I feel it is an inhumane and cruel practice that does not work as advertised.

People in favor of disbudding and/or dehorning goats often cite the safety of the handler (I don't want to get poked with horns while milking, and I have small children that could get poked with horns.), the safety of the goat (A goat could get stuck in a fence by the horns, and either die there of dehydration, or die there from being attacked by the neighbor's dogs and being unable to get away.), or safety of the other goats (A horned goat could seriously injure another goat in the herd, ripping open sides and udders and causing the goat to die.).

I have not found any of these things to be true. I read many, many studies, some of which I had to translate from German and Norwegian, on rates of accidents, injuries, etc., in horned herds verses disbudded herds, and there was no appreciable difference.

I *have* found studies that show a marked increase in encephalitis and other problems associated with disbudding. I have also heard personal accounts of injuries and deaths of goats occurring from disbudding. Every year, at kidding season, people come on here and have "What's wrong with my goat?!?" threads that folks diagnose as polio, listeria, or any number of things, that actually fit all of the symptoms of encephalitis, and these animals being recently disbudded. But I have to keep my mouth shut or else start another war over the subject.

If you have Boer Goats, they will NEVER be ennobled if they are disbudded. Ever. If you have Angora goats, you won't go anywhere in a show ring with them if they have been disbudded. If you have the rare, true Spanish goat, they cannot be registered if they are disbudded. Even Cashmere goats are judged, in shows, partially on their horns...it is under the conformation catagory.

The ONLY people who habitually disbud are dairy folks. The ONLY people who cite all of these horror stories are dairy folks. And ONLY in the U.S. Many countries in Europe have *banned* disbudding as animal cruelty, and they are not suffering any increases of their farm children getting their eyes poked out from goat horns.

I run a mixed herd, both horned and disbudded. My grandchildren play with my goats (Supervised, of course). The only things the horns have done to them is provide nifty handles. I have not suffered any horn related accidents, and, in fact, my herd queen happens to be disbudded. Obviously the horns haven't provided THAT much of an edge to her lower status, and horned, herd mates.

My opinion is that people disbud and remove horns to give themselves the *illusion* of safety.

That being said, if you wish to show dairy goats in an ADGA, AGS, or MDGA sanctioned live event, they must be disbudded, or they will not be allowed to be shown. SOME 4-H shows have the same policy. I know of no FFA shows that require that, however.

Oh, and before it is said ~grinz and winks at those who know~, I am an omnivore, and I kill and butcher my own animals for meat, and *I* find disbudding to be a cruel and inhumane practice.

Alice In TX/MO · #9 09/14/12, 05:32 PM

Somebody who isn't in the third day of diarrhea please do a search and post links to the previous arguments.... er..... threads where this is discussed.

I'm going back to bed with hot packs on my tummy and the twelfth dose of Imodium.

Not even going to take the the time to debate this. I don't agree with the poster above, and we have agreed to disagree.

CaliannG · #10 09/14/12, 05:36 PM

Crystal, I was writing at the same time as you. I was NOT referring to your experience with your child when talking about kids getting their eyes poked out. That was not meant as a personal jab at you, only that eyes being poked out with horns, scissors, etc., it a common way to explain damage to children. I am sorry that it came out that way. As I said, I did NOT read your post before writing that.

CaliannG · #11 09/14/12, 05:38 PM

Feel better, Alice. I am sorry you are under the weather.

I'll go hunt up links again. I really should keep a folder on this topic, or maybe just a form letter. It would be easier, wouldn't it?

Barnhouse · #12 09/14/12, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG

If you have Boer Goats, they will NEVER be ennobled if they are disbudded. Ever. If you have Angora goats, you won't go anywhere in a show ring with them if they have been disbudded. If you have the rare, true Spanish goat, they cannot be registered if they are disbudded. Even Cashmere goats are judged, in shows, partially on their horns...it is under the conformation catagory.

That being said, if you wish to show dairy goats in an ADGA, AGS, or MDGA sanctioned live event, they must be disbudded, or they will not be allowed to be shown. SOME 4-H shows have the same policy. I know of no FFA shows that require that, however.

Ok, now that makes no sense to me. I would think that if it truly is a safety issue, then it would be required for everyone.
Just an observation, don't nobody get mad at me!
(it would be nice to have some goat neighbors here, horny or not)

LoneStrChic23 · #13 09/14/12, 05:48 PM

LOL Caliann, I love your omnivore disclosure!

Do people think you're vegan or something becayse you choose not to disbud??

As to studies, MY decision is based on real life, seen/experienced with MY OWN EYES type of data....

Hubby, as a child was stabbed in the abdomen by a horned goat..... Horn went in almost 5" & he required emergency surgery, major antibiotics & still sports a nasty scar.

As a child, I came across the neighbor's pygmy stuck in the fence..... His face, ears & part of his neck were chewed off by roaming dogs..... Worse, when I got closer, I discovered the poor guy was still alive...... Deeply disturbing.

We had a sweet lil buckling we left horns on.... My very livestock savvy daughter was out petting him , he got spooked, tossed his head & jumped & his lil horn gouged my daughters face just an inch away from her eye..... She could have lost her eye.... Had he been hornless she'd just be bruised up. This was not a wild, mean goat, nor a child ignorant of proper behavior around livestock.... Just an accident.

I have seen a horn broke off inside another goat's udder....... I have seen a horn goat stab another goat through the thigh muscle & had to untangle them (gross BTW)...

No, these things don't happen all the time, in fact, I bet they are rare considering how many horned goats are out there, but I still won't have horns because of it. JMO

Donna1982 · #14 09/14/12, 05:49 PM

I personally think we need a sticky about this. Alice sweetie I hope you feel better!!!

I already said what I thought on the issue when you asked in my post today. This topic has been add to the things mommy told me to stay away from in a conversation, along with politics, religion and what you feed your dog.

Barnhouse · #15 09/14/12, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

Somebody who isn't in the third day of diarrhea please do a search and post links to the previous arguments.... er..... threads where this is discussed.

In all fairness, I did check the stickys first,
and I wasn't suggesting that people had to participate if they didn't want to.
It's just nice to talk to some folks from time to time.

wolffeathers · #16 09/14/12, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barnhouse

Here's the question:
Keep the horns, or never in a million years will I do that again?

It pretty much boils down to how YOU feel about it and your personal preference.

Typically showing or selling dairy goats, the common and expected practice is disbudding. Other than that, it boils down to personal preference.

I have both horned and disbudded. I can be a little more at ease up close and personal with the disbudded, but other than beind aware of where the horns are, my horned doe is no different.

I would honestly have all horned, if disbudding wasn't the standard. I wish they could be shown side-by-side. With a mixed herd, I haven't seen much to sway me to take a strong stand on either side. I've seen disbudding and feel I could disbud, my horned goats haven't given me much reason to say "I'll never have horned goats again". The only thing I don't think I would ever consider is banding already existing horns.

bluefish · #17 09/14/12, 05:51 PM

I am another one with horns. I have both but am phasing out the disbudded ones. I have actually found, in my herd, that goat mortality is higher among the disbudded. And no, it's not because they were disemboweled by their horned herdmates. They are constantly getting their heads stuck in places that they can't get out of. I even had one hang herself in the hay manger. I still haven't figured out HOW.

Anyway, the horned ones seem to learn about headspace, or hornspace, better than the disbudded ones. That, or the disbudding had negative effects on their intelligence. And while a horned goat cannot fend of a pack of canines, mine have killed a marauding neighbor dog once. Although the fact that they are well accustomed to dogs and not the least bit afraid of them probably helped a lot there as well.

I personally have had more blood drawn by goat teeth that horns. You do have to learn NOT to lean over their heads when they reach down for something.

I also consider horns sort of emergency animal control. I was attacked once by someone else's buck and only managed because I was able to grab his horns and wrestle with him, sort of. It bought me enough time for the owner to get in the pen with a 2x4 to help. It was a terrifying experience and one I don't know how I'd have gotten out of without SOMETHING to grab on him.

However, most people like the disbudded. I'm going to go make some popcorn now and sit in a fireproof chair.

LoneStrChic23 · #18 09/14/12, 05:51 PM

LOL Caliann, no need for that, I know ya wouldn't take a low blow at me, just as my post wasn't meant as such towards you, just giving the reasons behind my choice

We typically agree on goats, but on this, I'm happy to agree to disagree...

I can still love ya even if we aren't clones in our preferances

FrogTacos · #19 09/14/12, 06:02 PM

Ive got 20 head, 19 of them have horns. They can and do get stuck occasionally, only had to cut the fence once for it, not sure how she did it but had her horns looped through a corner.

Ive had millions of minor jabs, no ill intent. Ive had one major hit, one of my girls was trying to hit another one, the other goat ran out of the way, and I took the hit. Wore bruises for a couple weeks. Any number of ways that could have 'gone wrong' but it didn't.

I feel the same way about it as Caliann. I really think its cruel. To disbud a goat, you are literally burning its skull. They might feel fine after a bit, but they scream bloody murder from the pain of it.

dosthouhavemilk · #20 09/14/12, 06:11 PM

horns or not...ours are horned...you?
^ Decent discussion from the past.

No horns here whenever possible. Love my polled genetics. I work herds with horns...and come away covered in bruises every time. We did horns for awhile. Saw no good come of it. Well, my stance and reasoning behind it is fairly well articulated in the above linked thread. Though it needs to be adjusted. We now have a few more horned heads running around. About 6 or 7 meat bucklings with horns and I am leaving the last two doelings' horns on...they are slated for meat anyways, unfortunately. Shame really since they should milk well. I cannot even sell my dairy breed does, though, so they will be meat. It was too hot on my days off when they needed disbudded, so I let the boys slide. Higher percentage Boer so they will be gone before winter sets in and we risk them hanging themselves in our feeders.