New Goats Question

passionfleur · #1 08/31/12, 04:04 PM

*Sorry in advance for long post*

I brought my two, 6 month old mini nubian does home a couple weeks ago and they seemed to be doing great. One of them as two very small abscesses, one behind the right front leg and another on the left side of the body. I'm almost certain that they are not CL because its not round and hard to the touch. The one behind the front leg had drained on its own but only looked like white thick and smooth, and CL is supposed to be green tinged and clumpy. The other one also has one but it is small like the other goat's. I feel like I'm feeding too much grain too. They like to nibble on the grass and eat the hay like there's no tomorrow. They don't eat their mineral or their baking soda. (Manna Pro Mineral from Tractor's Supply). Now, all of a sudden one or both of them is pooping thick pudding like poops. I don't know? What should I do?

andabigmac · #2 08/31/12, 04:34 PM

The abscesses could be from getting their shots. Those are common areas to give shots. Did your new girls receive their shots?

As for the poo it could be stomach upset from a change in food. Pepto and Probios should help. You can also give them a baking soda ball. Were they given cocci prevention? Have they been wormed? If so, with what? How much grain are you feeding them?

passionfleur · #3 08/31/12, 08:36 PM

A cup each every other day on the grain. I personally haven't given them their shots, but the place I purchased from them from had tested the entire herd a couple years back and were negative. A baking soda ball? Never heard of it. I just have been giving it to them in a container free-choice. I gave them some herbal wormer and dusted their pasture area with diatomaceous earth. Other than, nothing else.

Alice In TX/MO · #4 08/31/12, 08:44 PM

Oh, dear. Welcome to the confusing world of goat care.

What feed were they on where they were? What feed are you feeding? Any change will cause clumpy poo. A change in hay or browse can cause clumpy poo.
For future reference, the best thing to do is to bring home some of their accustomed feed and gradually make any changes.

Why are you only feeding every other day? They are growing babies and need consistent feed, good hay available 24/7, and preventive treatment for coccidia.

Deworming with a chemical dewormer when moving them is a pretty standard method of preventing stress induced worm bloom, too. Herbals just don't cut it.

Testing a couple of years ago is bogus. If they brought ANY goats into their herd in that time, there's a risk. Also, WHAT did they test for? CAE only? Johnes?

I'd give them some Kaopectate, deworm with Cydectin, and get them on coccidia prevention.

I just brought home a fostered doeling that someone raised to 10 weeks for me, and I went through the SAME things. TOO many changes.

Backfourty,MI. · #5 08/31/12, 10:08 PM

Ditto what Alice & andabigmac said. Also when andabigmac asked about shots in those areas she is talking about their CD & T vaccines. When they are real young they get their 1st shot then 3 weeks later they get their booster. I do give my 1st shot & booster on opposite sides.
I would call the breeder though & make sure they gave CD & T shots though & tell them about the abcesses & where they are at. Your disease testing needs to be done yearly to be up to date & reliable.

CaliannG · #6 08/31/12, 10:23 PM

Also, did they actually SHOW you the paperwork from the negative test for their herd?

Lots of folks around here *claim* to be disease free, that they tested a couple of years ago and kept a closed herd, but when you ask to see their paperwork, they hem, haw, they "lost" it, etc. In the future, be careful of folks like that.

As it sits, it sounds like a Pastuerlla abscess. What are their temps?

ozark_jewels · #7 09/01/12, 10:27 AM

I give Bo-Se shots on the sides over the ribs and the CDT shots behind the front leg. Both shots can cause abcesses if improperly given. And CDT usually causes a small knot even when given correctly. So in my herd, those lumps would be shot lumps in those areas you describe.

But, what I would do, is call up the seller and ask them what shots the kids had and *where* they gave them on the body. Don't offer the location of the lumps or even mention the lumps until they answer for what shots they give and where they give them. This way, on the off chance they are dishonest, you have a guage for their truthfulness with their answers to your questions. Be totally polite, but if they have any routine at all, they should easily be able to tell you where they routinely give shots.

Even if you find out the shots were given in these locations, if another knot busts, I'd HIGHLY reccomend taking the pus into a vet and tell them you want to send it off for a culture to see what caused it. They will get the results back and confirm yes or no on CL. This is a very small thing to set your mind at ease.

Second what Alice said on the deworming. If your vet can run a fecal, that would be a good place to start. Tell them you need to know what worms you are dealing with, not just IF they have worms. They could probably do with some Valbazen also to get tapes. In young goats, tapeworms can be a real problem. Since you don't know about these goats as they are new to you, it would be a good idea to worm them with Valbazen at the dosage of 1 cc per 10 pounds. If guessing weights for worming, guess high then round up.

Rather than feed every other day, I'd feed every day. If you don't want to feed more than a cup each every other day, just feed 1/2 a cup every day instead. Consistency is a huge deal with raising kids.

passionfleur · #8 09/04/12, 11:08 AM

Thank you guys so much for your help!

I do know that the seller did give them the CD&T shots, so I'm glad it can't be something like CL. They did tell me that they had dewormed them and that they did practice prevention of Coccidiosis. Their website says that they have a closed herd and upon emailing them she said that she tested for CAE in the herd a few years ago (like I said in my first post) and they said that Johne's was hard to test for (so I'm guessing she didn't get them tested.)
On feeding them, I was told feed grain every other day because they shouldn't have too much and that they can have as much free choice hay and pastured grass they care for.
Also, I know this makes me sound like a newbie but what exactly do I give them to prevent the Coccidiosis? Do I give them Coccidiostat?

Thank you guys for all of the advice, I definitely have to take a lot to think about now.

CaliannG · #9 09/04/12, 11:32 AM

Baycox (Toltrazuril) is the go-to coccidiostat now. You can use Corid as a preventative, but it is not as good or as easy.

Johnne's is NOT hard to test for. That is absolute BS. Johnne's can be tested for with either a fecal test (the most accurate) or a blood test, and neither of them are difficult.

And I am sorry, it COULD be CL, it just doesn't sound much like it. You should get them tested for both CL (especially if an abscess bursts...the abscess culture is the most accurate, although a blood test will do if you don't have abscess contents to culture.)

At 6 months old, they NEED grain to grow their best. Especially if they are not getting milk. Milk is very high in protein and sugars, and do realize that a dam-raised kid will often not be weaned until the dam is bred again, sometimes at 9-10 months old. Your kids don't have the benefit of their dam continuing to give them milk to help them grow, so they NEED grain.

My weaned doe kids get a *pound* of Meat Maker Pellet twice a day. PLUS all of the hay and pasture they can munch. I haven't lost a kid to ANYTHING in the last 7 years. The only adult goat I have "lost" in the last 7 years was one that I had bought and turned out to be diseased, so I had to cull her. So the feeding kids 2lbs of grain a day obviously hasn't hurt them any.

It's okay to sound like a newbie. You are a newbie. ~smiles~ It's important to ask questions and learn things. Your goats will benefit from it, and you will avoid heartbreak by learning.

I am sorry, but the people you got your goats from don't sound like good breeders. People who truly have tested herds are anxious to show you the paperwork, whether you ask them for it or not. It protects them, as well as you, for them to be able to say that they have had their herd tested, AND they witnessed you reading the test results for yourself.

And good breeders don't short their growing kids on the grain. Dairy goat people need their doelings to be at good weight by breeding season, and that is not going to happen without grain. Meat goat people need their market wethers and bucks at a good weight by market time, and that is not going to happen without grain. A cup of grain every other day is NOT enough for a young kid to grow well on.

wintrrwolf · #10 09/04/12, 12:23 PM

Lets see I got Pebbles from yarrow with stuff for cocci treatment never had a problem with Pebbles having scours with stress of moving she was also a bottle baby and I kept her on the same milk yarrow had her on.
Now Pearl ...previous owners stated they had wormed her (safeguard) she got a bout of bad scours after arriving, she refused any bottles so I upped her grain intake (of course she had free feed hay and pasture) had to treat her for coccidia.
Major changes cause stress and as Alice said causes worm bloom (I like that)

oh wanted to ad that yarrow gave me copies of several pages of testing results on her goats, I didn't even have to ask her.

Kits&Kids · #11 09/04/12, 12:32 PM

Just for future reference the puss from a cl absess is white and thick kinda like cottage cheese.not green.

CaliannG · #12 09/04/12, 12:42 PM

A little bit on feeding that I found for you:

"The adult size of a particular goat is a product of its breed (genetic potential) and its diet while growing (nutritional potential.) As with all livestock, increased protein diets (10 to 14%) and sufficient calories during the prepuberty period yield higher growth rates and larger eventual size than lower protein rates and limited calories."

-- Pugh, D.G. and Rankins, D. L. Jr, "Feeding and Nutrition" Sheep and Goat Medicine, 2nd Ed. Elsevier (2012) Maryland Heights, pg 40-42.

Your average, mixed, non-irrigated or fertilized, grass-type pasture yields between 5-7% protein. Certain strains of hybrid grasses that are both irrigated an fertilized yield as much as 9-11% protein. Hay, of course, reflects the conditions of the pasture it was harvested from, with unfertilized, un-irrigated, common grass hay being between 5-7%.

Alfalfa, of course, has PLENTY of protein, between 16-22%, so if your pastures and your hay are all alfalfa, your 6 month old kids are fine on their nutritional needs.

If not, however, if you are like most of us and have grassy/weedy pastures and are feeding grass hay, then your kids do NOT have enough calories, protein, and nutrition to grow big and strong upon. If they do not get sufficient grain to make up for this, then they will not reach their full potential in size, and will be under their breed average for the rest of their lives.

Early feeding, care, treatment of parasites and coccidia, mineral and nutritional intake, are VERY IMPORTANT for the first two years. I cannot stress HOW important it is. A single bout of untreated coccidia, or poor nutrition during that all important growing time, will effect a goat for their *entire lives*, impacting their longevity, their production, their thriftiness, and their ability to fight off parasites and disease.

Don't stint on your kids. You and they will have to live with the results for the next decade.

passionfleur · #13 09/04/12, 04:33 PM

CaliannG- Now that I know about the grain, I will feed them everyday. I have heard that alfalfa isn't as good of hay because too much can cause bloat/gas, so I'm currently giving them mainly fescue. They won't eat the Manna Pro Goat Mineral I got for them, so I purchased a small mineral block from TSC. They seem to like that a little more. I will definitely will go purchase the Baycox/Toltrazuril, but I have no idea where to buy that. Can you get it at TSC? I do happen to have a Southern States (Farmer's Exchange), could I find it there? Also, from what I have read online on the descriptions of CL and the look of the pus, I really don't think it is CL.

Kits&Kids-What I read about CL is that the pus is like cottage cheese consistency, but it has a kind of green tinge to the pus. Pickles (the goat with the erupted abscess) had a smooth, almost like yogurt consistency and no real tinge of any color other than white.

wintrrwolf-I think the biggest thing I regret is not asking for a bit of the grain from the breeder to transition them into eating our grain for them. They did, however, give us a little bit of their hay but no nearly enough to wean them off over a small period of time.

So let's see:
-Feed more grain
-Treat for coccidia
-Test for Johnnes
-Test for CL

Do I still need to change the dewormer I have them on. It's the herbal formula from Fias Co Farm?

CaliannG · #14 09/04/12, 04:58 PM

Ummm, YIKES! Fescue can contain endophytes which *kills* goats! Honey, don't feed fescue unless you can get a GUARANTEE from your hay supplier that it is endophyte free! I wouldn't do it unless that guarantee was in *writing*.

Too much of anything can cause bloat at first. That is why we change feed slowly. When I lived in Colorado (Ye land of cheap alfalfa), I didn't feed anything BUT alfalfa. My pasture was full of it, so they ate it fresh. The hay I got was all alfalfa and that is what they ate all winter, and they got alfalfa pellets. Never had a case of bloat, EVER.

There are LOTS of myths and old wives tales out there concerning goats and feeding, and it sounds like you have been subject to more than a few.

Okay...so the list:

1. Get some fresh berries and have your vet do a fecal sample so you know what parasites you are dealing with, including coccidia.

2. Baycox is not available over-the-counter in the U.S. You can either get it from your vet, or order it from Canada at Injectable Vitamins, Supplements, and Amino Acid Compounds .

3. Test for Johnne's and CL. You might as well throw the CAE test in there also. You can just have your vet draw the blood for you and send it in to WADDLs at Washington Animal Disease Diagnostic laboratory at Washington State University. The last time I used them (before I moved some place that has a good, local lab), I paid $32 per goat to have my vet draw blood, AND the shipping to send it to WADDLs, AND 4 tests (I had CL, CAE, Johnne's and Brucella done at the time), so it is not THAT expensive to get all the tests done.

4. Change your hay, unless you have a guarantee that the fescue is endophyte free. Most of us avoid fescue altogether, because you never know when they hay supplier will con you, or get hay from someone else, and frankly, most of us are too attached to our goats to risk dead goats, even with a guarantee. The guarantee only means that you have legal standing to sue for losses if the hay kills your goats.

passionfleur · #15 09/04/12, 05:21 PM

Wow am I in deep :/ We get our fescue from a local guy that we know through our neighbor, only thing he feeds his horses. How does alfalfa and other hay not have endophytes? Is fescue just more susceptible? If that's the case, I'll give them the alfafa from now on.

Thank you so much for your help. I know I've been asking a lot of questions, just trying to get on the right track.

CaliannG · #16 09/04/12, 06:08 PM

Fescue endophytes are a fungus that is grows strictly in fescue, called Acremonium coenophialum. It does not grow in alfalfa, or buffalo grass because the fungus did not evolve to live in alfalfa or buffalo grass. It only inhabits fescue, and it spreads itself in the fescue SEED.

If a stand or pasture has fungus inhabited fescue, it will always have fungus inhabited fescue. However, if a pasture is sterilized completely, and then seeded with endophyte-free fescue seed, then the pasture will have "safe" fescue growing in it.

If you'd like to read up on the whole fescue thing, you can learn about it here.

Fescue isn't really a good hay crop anyway. It has low protein, not a good TDN, and is easily out-performed by modern hybrid grasses, such as Tifton 85, or in cooler climates, Timothy. Mostly it is used as a cheap, shade tolerant, lawn seed nowadays. Old Timers will sometimes still use it, because they have the hype from the 50's over it still in their heads. Of course, I know a bunch of old time farmers who will STILL tell you that DDT is perfectly harmless and they don't know why the government disallowed its use.

Ask questions. Ask LOTS of questions. We NEVER mind questions and we are always happy that people ask them. There is a wealth of knowledge on this board, freely given.

Make use of it.

thaiblue12 · #17 09/04/12, 06:28 PM

Pepto for their stomachs, yes the people kind and see if that works. Leave out a bowl of baking soda. If none of that works take poop to the vet to see what wormer you need. Runny poop is caused by lots more things then Johnnes.

I feed two parts alfalfa pellets and one part grain with grass hay. The alfalfa does not cause bloat, sudden feed changes can, so changing how you feed should be done slowly.
You can feed a grass/alfalfa hay mix and some grain. Do not over do the grain or that can lead to problems like acidosis or too fat to be bred. Everyone feeds differently so you have to find the way that works for you.

If they do develop any more lumps I would take them to the vet and have the pus tested.

passionfleur · #18 09/05/12, 11:04 AM

Okay, I think I got what I need. I took the goats to the vet today and was told that the one with the scours did have coccidia. We purchased Cydectin, is that any better than the Baycox/Toltrazuril? We haven't been able to get the blood tests yet but I think we may have found a larger animal hospital close by.

CaliannG · #19 09/05/12, 11:32 AM

Did your vet recommend Cydectin for coccidia? I hope not, because Cydectin is a *wormer*, not a coccidistat.

Two different medications entirely. Kinda like you don't take Advil for an upset stomach and you don't take Pepto to help with a cold.

The Cydectin will help with parasite loads, but it won't do anything for coccidia. Did you ask your vet about Baycox?

passionfleur · #20 09/05/12, 12:57 PM

I didn't ask the vet about Baycox, we went to a vet like 5 minutes down the road and they don't usually do anything for larger animals. We took fecal samples and they tested it, and one of them did have coccidia (as well as strongyles). They didn't recommend anything but to go to the farm and feed store and ask them there. We ordered the Baycox through that website too. We also purchased the corrid at the farm and feed, but we are planning to return it. Do we need to treat them additionally with a antibiotic? How can I keep them healthy for the next couple days before the Baycox gets here? :/