Information gathering stage questions

[stifflej]

So, I don't have goats, but have been reading up on them and trying to devise a plan to determine if I do want them, and if so, what do I need to do. The plan would be to have a few milking goats, to supply milk to the Holstein steer calves I raise every year. Excess milk would go to my pigs. But I have lots of questions.

1. Can cows and goats pasture together, and will 2 strand of electric keep goats in?
2. How many goats, probably saanen, would i need to feed 2 or 3 calves 1 gallon a day each?
3. I would prefer to milk once a day, in the morning, separate kids at night, milk first thing in morning, then let kids feed all day, is anyone doing this? Any issues?
4. Besides saanen, would any of you recommend another breed that would suit my plans better?
5. I would like to get a milker, to milk 2 at a time, any suggestions?
6. Does anyone have a good layout of their milking station that allows for milking 2 at a time?
7. do you feed dry does grain, or just grain when they are getting closer to kidding, and through lactation?
8. I have read that lactation should last close/up to 305 days, is there any issues if you would dry her off around 150 days (long enough to raise 2 sets of calves)?
9. Does anything have to be done to milk before feeding to calves? pigs? us?
10. Can the milk be frozen, if so, anything special have to be done to it before freezing?

Thanks all for any answers you can provide.

[Alice In TX/MO]

1. Can cows and goats pasture together, and will 2 strand of electric keep goats in?
Yes, they can pasture together. NO, two strands of electric doesn't even look like a fence to a goat. The statement that if your fence won't hold smoke, it won't hold goats has basis in fact.

2. How many goats, probably saanen, would i need to feed 2 or 3 calves 1 gallon a day each?
REALLY good Saanens may make close to two gallons a day, milked twice a day, fed well, dewormed as needed.

3. I would prefer to milk once a day, in the morning, separate kids at night, milk first thing in morning, then let kids feed all day, is anyone doing this? Any issues?

You aren't going to put calves on those goats directly are you?? Get a nurse cow for your calves instead. Otherwise udders will be ruined.

4. Besides saanen, would any of you recommend another breed that would suit my plans better?

Nurse cow.

5. I would like to get a milker, to milk 2 at a time, any suggestions?

Perry's Milkers Home

6. Does anyone have a good layout of their milking station that allows for milking 2 at a time?

Just put your stands close enough together or build a two goat stand.

7. do you feed dry does grain, or just grain when they are getting closer to kidding, and through lactation?

I feed a small amount of grain year round, but that's just me.

8. I have read that lactation should last close/up to 305 days, is there any issues if you would dry her off around 150 days (long enough to raise 2 sets of calves)?

Repeated short lactations train the udder to perform that way, and you are wasting your investment in good goats. Get a nurse cow.

9. Does anything have to be done to milk before feeding to calves? pigs? us?

If you have disease free goats, no.

10. Can the milk be frozen, if so, anything special have to be done to it before freezing?

You can freeze it successfully, IF you freeze it RIGHT AWAY after milking. If it sits around, even in the fridge, before you freeze it, it will curdle when you defrost it.

[stifflej]

You aren't going to put calves on those goats directly are you?? Get a nurse cow for your calves instead. Otherwise udders will be ruined.

No, I would not be putting the calves directly on the doe, I have read that is bad, and if I wanted to try to graft a calf, I would get a nurse cow. Besides grafting to a nurse cow, other reason I don't want a nurse cow is because of the breeding and deliver aspect. I was hoping with a smaller animal (goat), i could gain experience with breeding, and I could work my way up to breeding cattle, but don't really want to start calving cows, and have to pull something that large without more experience in general with deliveries. Am i thinking about this wrong?

[stifflej]

In regards to the fencing, how do you all keep them fenced on a few acres? Cost would be an issue. Thanks.

[mrs whodunit]

Cattle panels work great for goats.

[PaulNKS]

I agree with just about everything Alice advised.

A couple goats 'may' be okay, but most likely they won't be able to feed a couple Holstein calves.

As for your reasoning about not having a cow and having to pull a calf.... most calves don't have to be pulled.

If you have no experience with large animals then I would stay away from a cow and calves.

Your other option is to buy milk replacer for your calves. Depending on how many milk goats you have, milk replacer may be cheaper than trying to grain the goats.

My goats are mostly meat goats. I have a few dairy goats. NO one gets grain except when I milk. That is the only time I give any grain. Goats don't need grain.

[stifflej]

I have had a few heads of cattle for 5 years now, and have raised a few bottle calves, using milk replacer. It is getting expensive, so was just trying to see if adding some dairy goats would offset some cost, plus allow me to raise a few extra to sell weened, to recoup some money. Keeping a bull and handling the births is what concerns me with the cattle. Please keep the opinions coming, as I am just gathering info, and appreciate all the answers. Thanks.

[stifflej]

Another question, I have read a few things about hoof care, what needs done, and how often? How difficult is it for a newbie to learn? Thanks.

[Hollowdweller]

My only suggestion is before you jump in be sure to determine if feeding them goat milk is actually cheaper.

I think if you include the cost of your time milking and caring for the goats at even $10 an hour that it may be cheaper to buy milk replacer.

[wintrrwolf]

I agree with Alice. Was also going to suggest Saanen I had a grade saanen that gave me a gallon a day. If you decide to go goats I feel you should be warned that they are not at all just "livestock" especially milk goats. I have seen and know people who raise meat goats and while keeping them out in pasture tossing out some hay works for meat it does't work that well for milk. My friends that have Kiko's up the road comment on how friendly my goats are (well ya ever try to milk a bucking bronco?) Milk goats will require a bit more attention and depending on the quality of the breed you decide on it could take very little extra expense to keep them maintained. That being said I am very glad to hear you are researching before purchasing.

[wintrrwolf]

Originally Posted by stifflej

Another question, I have read a few things about hoof care, what needs done, and how often? How difficult is it for a newbie to learn? Thanks.

Hoof care isn't that hard when you only have a few and once they are trained. I trim when needed and YES it is so much easier to trim goats hooves then cows!

[andabigmac]

Originally Posted by stifflej

Another question, I have read a few things about hoof care, what needs done, and how often? How difficult is it for a newbie to learn? Thanks.

Depends on the newbie. DH isn't allowed anywhere near the goats' feet with a pair of trimmers. We've had goats for years but his brain just doesn't work like that.

It isn't hard. Have whoever sells you your goats teach you. Hoegger's has a video if you can't find someone to show you. Hoegger Supply Co. :: The... YouTube also has videos but most aren't that great.

I try to do mine every month to a month and a half but mine are on dirt and not climbing over rocks daily. I know people who only do them quarterly or a few times a year.

[stifflej]

Originally Posted by Hollowdweller

My only suggestion is before you jump in be sure to determine if feeding them goat milk is actually cheaper.

I think if you include the cost of your time milking and caring for the goats at even $10 an hour that it may be cheaper to buy milk replacer.

Will take this into consideration, although if I took into account my time on my chickens, pigs and cows, I wouldn't be able to afford any of them. I am also trying to determine not just what I save by not buying milk replacer, but what can be made by selling 3-6 weened Holstein steers a year (always seem to forget something when trying to figure in expenses). It sounds like if I would get into milking, I would have to do it longer then the 150 days I originally stated, which would allow me to raise about 9 calves a year (i keep 3 to grow out, and sell the other 6, if they all make it). So if I was able to make $100 on each calf, for a profit of $600, plus save $225 on milk replacer for the 3 I keep, would that pay for food for say 4 or 5 goats?

[Hollowdweller]

The main thing I can see is if you buy goats that have the level of productivity that you are looking for then you will have extreme difficulty drying them off at 150 days without either #1 them getting mastitis, or #2 having them milk less on subsequent lactations.

What is the price of grain and hay in your area?

For a goat giving 1 gallon a day I'd figure on feeding her about 3 lbs of 16% grain a day.

For 5 goats I'd figure on feeding them about a bale of alfalfa a day or a full bale of grass hay a day.

I'd figure on about 45 minutes a day for milking twice a day so an hour and a half a day.

My goat feed costs me 15 bucks per 50 lbs. A 50 lb bale of alfalfa runs around 4 bucks a bale, but the last I bought was 5.

For my 5 goats eating 3 lbs a day it runs about $5 a day. I feed more grain when they are fresh and milking more but right now I'm milking 3 of the 5 from 4/11. As far as hay I'm feeding about $5 a day worth.

At $10 an hour my time for milking per day would be $15.

So that would be about 25 bucks a day including my time.

So in 150 days that would amount to spending about $3750.

I would be milking 5 goats and getting about 7 gallons of milk a day.

You should get some return for selling the kids also, only you would know what you could get out of them, and remember that all while they are growing you will be feeding them the milk. Some dairies actually feed their kids milk replacer because the goat milk is actually too expensive to feed to the kids.

In order to get around feeding the kids milk you could just keep milking the goats instead of breeding them but then you couldn't dry them up at 150.

[Natural Beauty Farm]

Think you will find that milk replacer is MUCH cheaper than keeping goats.
Old saying goes if you want to have 1 million in bank from raising goats, start with 2 million.

Better yet buy neighbors extra if you can, we get Jersey milk for under $1 a gallon here.
Very few people keep bulls now, too easy to AI them and use a great bull, if you want to save money that is the first thing I would look at.

Had cows here, they got a wild hair and kicked down a fence, kicked several prized goats, broke legs..... cows became best burgers we had that afternoon. No way I would have another cow here on the farm.

[stifflej]

Looked at AI, no one around here does it, dairy farmer won't even do it anymore. Looked into a class, but none around. No neighbors raise milkers any more either. Looks like it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to move forward with my plan, although I may still be interested in getting a couple just for pets, I think the wife and kids would love them. And they could help me keep the pasture weeded. Thanks all.

[Ford Zoo]

I think your idea is wonderful, but I also think one bag of milk replacer per calf is cheaper than keeping a few dairy goats in milk-especially with the looming rise in feed we are expecting to see soon-, and a lot less work.

I have ND's and have never had the larger breed of dairy goats, but my best milker can eat 2 quart jars of grain a day while she is in milk just to keep her condition up.

You do have a good idea though! I say it never hurts to try anything-perhaps you will fall for the goats, forget the beef, and become a goat hoarder with the rest of us!!

[Alice In TX/MO]

Where are those calves going to come from? If you are buying orphans at the sale, be advised they are most times not healthy, and you're going to loose some.... well, maybe most of them. They often got no colostrum, picked up disease at the auction, etc etc.

Not saying it can't be done, but the only person I ever knew who raised calves on goat milk had a goat dairy and a small cattle herd.

[Ford Zoo]

Alice makes a good point there. I personally witnessed a neighbor purchase 18 calves from a grade A dairy this spring, no colostrum, etc. The neighbor did not heed anyones' advice on management and lost all 18...

[stifflej]

I get mine directly from a dairy, he makes sure they get colostrum the first day. I have been getting them from him the last 2 years with good success. Those were all fed with MR, first batch to butcher in a couple months.