does she need copper?

mamaC11 · #1 07/19/12, 04:32 PM

I wish I had a pic, but I don't. I'm not sure what to look for exactly for copper deficiency. One of my girls, Betsy, is a dark/chocolate headed Boer. I've noticed that patches of her chocolate are lighter than the rest of her head. Could she need extra Copper? Right now I'm top dressing her feed (alfalfa pellets and sweet feed at a 2:1 mix) with Manna Pro Goat Minerals. Since I've been doing the goat minerals would the extra copper be a bad idea? If you think yes on the extra, is that a copper bolus (sp?) and where do I get it and how do I administer it. Thanks!

Ford Zoo · #2 07/19/12, 04:35 PM

Giving a bolus of copper rods can't hurt since the body only absorbs what it needs. Use the search tab at the top of the page to look for signs of copper deficiency, dosing sizes, and where to buy. A few members sell individual bolus.

Sorry I don't have all the info right here for you.

Ford Zoo · #3 07/19/12, 04:37 PM

"Mrs. H" sells boluses, search for her thread here:
"I got my copusure and I'm interested in selling extra. "

mamaC11 · #4 07/19/12, 04:45 PM

Thank you! right now I'm browsing yahoo images to see what to look for. there isn't a fishtail going on. what about her coat...I guess I'll have to run down and get some photos of her. My other doe's coat is slick, this one's coat seems....thick? I guess there is a better word for it. Maybe kind of coarse? It almost looks as if she needs to shed, but hasn't does that make sense? Will definitely do the search on the board. right now my kiddos are telling me they haven't eaten in "FOR-EV-ER", lol!

WorthItFarms · #5 07/19/12, 06:04 PM

She CAN get copper toxicity from too much copper.

Copper Deficiency and Toxicity in Goats

mamaC11 · #6 07/19/12, 06:33 PM

yeah, I had read about that. That is why I was wondering if giving a bolus is a bad idea since I top dress her feed with it. I also searched the site and read from a poster that if I do the Copper I should do Selenium too. Jeffers has a selenium gel special right now that if you buy 2 tubes you get a vit ADE&B12 tube for free. first off, is it correct that she would need the selenium to help the uptake of the copper. 2nd--what is the ADE&B12 for? Ok, I also read here on HT that having a rough coat could mean worms. I dosed her with Ivomec about a month ago, should I re-dose? I'm headed down to the pen to make the evening rounds. I'll check her eyelids if I can get a good grip on her by myself. She HATES to be handled.

KrisD · #7 07/19/12, 07:08 PM

You need to do fecals instead of worming indiscriminately. If you have worms you don't even know if they are responding to the wormer or what kind of worms you have.
How much copper are top dressing the food with? Look for a fish tail as well as coat color changes.

Pony · #8 07/19/12, 07:32 PM

You need to give an incredibly high amount of copper to induce toxicity.

mamaC11 · #9 07/19/12, 07:56 PM

Thanks KrisD. I'm stuck on this. We are about 90% certain she is bred and I've heard that Ivermectin is the only safe wormer for bred does. I'll check into the cost of a fecal. Right now we are on a pretty severe spending freeze as we just got hit with a $4000 bill for "phase 1" orthodontic treatment on my 2 older girls so we just decided that if she's bred, she's bred. If not, then we'll breed soon enough, but it makes me want to proceed with caution just in case. I know it sounds like I'm making excuses, and I assure you that I'm not. I love my goats. This $4000 on top of regular life and the upcoming property tax season...we've gotta be very selective. There is only one goat vet around here, I'll contact them tomorrow concerning the fecal. In the mean time, here are the pics of her coat coloration that I'm concerned about. Also, I did check her eyelids and they are kind of in the middle of the pink scale. Off to do some research.
[IMG] does she need copper? - Goats

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[IMG] does she need copper? - Goats

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LoneStrChic23 · #10 07/19/12, 09:17 PM

I did a "How To" blog post, complete with pictures & info on making your own boluses:

"The Adventures of Noodleville": A Noodleville "How To": Copper Bolusing

If she were mine, I'd bolus.

As to how to administer, you can try the pill gun method in my blog post, a balling gun, mix a bit in apple sauce/yogurt & drench it, put it in a marshmallow, a small jelly sandwich.... Lots of ways to give it

KrisD · #11 07/19/12, 11:23 PM

I'm with Crystal I think she needs copper. We all totally understand the finances thing it happens to all of us. You are not being neglectful you are taking care of your family. Here fecals are $25 if I bring the poop into the vet rather then bringing in the goat. If she comes back with worms then you will know how many and what kinds. I wasn't trying to be harsh before and I apologize if I came across that way. You can over dose on copper but it is rare and you would have to do quite a lot.

CarolT · #12 07/19/12, 11:40 PM

Make sure you are in a selenium deficient area before adding it. If you aren't, she will get enough of it from her browse.

USGS Mineral News Archives

mamaC11 · #13 07/20/12, 10:21 AM

Oh, No Kris D! I wasn't upset with you. I think it is that insane guilt thing that gets me. I wish I had unlimited resources, lol! I feel guilty if I don't get my goats everything they need, I feel guilty if my kids don't get something...I hate mama guilt.

I think after researching everything I'm definitely going to dose them all with copper, my billy looks like he might have a fishtail starting and try the Molly's Herbal wormer #2 b/c it is supposed to be safe for pregnant does, just in case she is

CarolT, I pulled up some info for my state (GA) and my county (according to some agricultural website for the area's soil and forage) and my county is classified as low in selenium so I think I'll go ahead and get the selenium gel.

Pony · #14 07/20/12, 10:29 AM

I think the injectable (BoSe) may be cheaper than the gel.

mamaC11 · #15 07/20/12, 01:14 PM

really? I thought it was a vet script only kind of thing. I'll look into it, thanks for the heads up

AuntKitty · #16 07/20/12, 01:14 PM

Where in GA are you, MamaC11? I am just south of the FL state line above Tallahassee and would be happy to share Copasure if you are in SW GA. From the pix it looks to me like she could use some copper. Do you know how long ago she was bred? You don't want to give her anything for the 1st 50 days or she might abort. PM me if you are near and want to talk. Thanks!

Kitty

mamaC11 · #17 07/20/12, 01:17 PM

I wish I were that close to FL!!! I'm in the mountains. We've had her for at least 30 days, the guy that sold her to us had allowed his Buck to run with his does before he sold off, so she may or may not, but all his other does have kidded or are def. bred, so we're hoping that she is too.

KrisD · #18 07/21/12, 01:59 AM

I would use the BO SE gel so you don't need a vet script. MRS H sells copper,I have lots extra but I don't have them divided down. One 25 GM bolus Did all 6 of mine. I do as much as I can without the vet to save money. Don't feel bad that you can't do all things for all animals and all people. You are human and here is only so much you can do. You're a good goat mamma!
I didn't take it personally btw I just know that my tone can come off a little harsh sometimes even when I don't mean to. If your in GA you should check with Cannon Farms she used to sell copper and might still be able to being that your in the same state.

PaulNKS · #19 07/21/12, 07:52 AM

If you are already giving her a feed AND a goat mineral, the goat mineral should be balanced with all the copper she needs. Too much copper is just as bad as not enough.

Your description of her coat sounds more like a parasite issue than anything. I'd wait until you find out from the vet.

I have never figured out why so many goat people automatically assume every problem with a goat is related to copper deficiency, especially if they are already giving a goat mineral. Parasites are going to be your number one problem, much more than a copper problem.

I would recommend buying an inexpensive microscope and learn how to do your own fecals. It's very easy.

But... since you are feeding a goat mineral, I would almost bet you my best goat that her problem is not copper related. That is, if it is a quality goat mineral, it will have enough copper to meet their needs. If it isn't good enough, then why feed it to them?

JBarGFarmKeeper · #20 07/21/12, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulNKS

If you are already giving her a feed AND a goat mineral, the goat mineral should be balanced with all the copper she needs. Too much copper is just as bad as not enough.

Your description of her coat sounds more like a parasite issue than anything. I'd wait until you find out from the vet.

I have never figured out why so many goat people automatically assume every problem with a goat is related to copper deficiency, especially if they are already giving a goat mineral. Parasites are going to be your number one problem, much more than a copper problem.

I would recommend buying an inexpensive microscope and learn how to do your own fecals. It's very easy.

But... since you are feeding a goat mineral, I would almost bet you my best goat that her problem is not copper related. That is, if it is a quality goat mineral, it will have enough copper to meet their needs. If it isn't good enough, then why feed it to them?

"Goat Minerals" are notoriously too LOW in copper. A LOT of us feed CATTLE mineral here. Right Now Onyx is the best I have tried. I have it out free-choice since February and I am on my 4th or 5th bag (I have a few more than several goats and you can't MAKE me count them

) and they are just now starting to slow down. I have a dam line that I have to bolus ON TOP of the Onyx mineral because they need more, they don't shed out like they should.

Another thing I have found is that copper deficiency ADDS to the susceptability to parasites. When I bolus I don't HAVE to use chemical wormers as much.

Paul, I'm thrilled that you have been so fortunate as to not have these deficiencies, but, by trial and error (many of the latter) I have come to realize that copper is DEFINITELY a problem HERE. It has made "goat life" pleasant at our place and that makes me happy. Don't be so quick to assume that we "jump".

Good luck with your research...fecals are around $10 here, however, if you have an r-tard like I have encountered they call and say, "Yes, common stomach worms." I say, "Which ones?" and they say, "Well....we'll have to 'send it off' if you want more than that." Oh, good grief.