I need some ideas.....

[CJBegins]

I have a 50 acre pasture/hay field that I haven't been able to have cut for 2 years. We have brushhogged it but not enough to keep the weeds, locust trees and blackberry briars at bay. It is currently fenced with a 5 strand barb wire around 2 sides and a mixture of old woven and barb wire on the other 2 sides.

I am quickly loosing an awesome hayfield to junk. I have a herd of 10 horses and 7 cows. They don't put a dent in the mess. I have a couple of dairy goats that I have had for a little over a year so I am not a complete newby but still learning a lot about goat care.

Driving past my neighbors pasture last night looking at his herd of savannah goat and how weed free his pasture is now after about 3 years of having about 20 or so goats a light went off....long sentence, I know.
Would it be economical to invest in a herd of meat goats and use rotational grazing to get my hay field back. As it is, it isn't worth cutting for hay but there is lots of grass that grows, just more weeds than grass.

So for all you meat goat folks. What kind of fencing would you add to what I already have besides cross fencing? What kind of goats would you start with? I am seeing a lot of info about kiko's here locally. The neighbor has savannah's. Do meat goat farmer tend to test their herds like dairy goat farmers? I am cae/cl free so far per testing. How many goats would you start with? My field is approx. 50 acres and I could divide it up into 5 10 acre lots.

I am sure as this discussion progresses there will be more questions...
Thank you
Carla

[Copperhead]

Carla

I couldn't let your post go unanswered, but I think I answered it in this post. Click on the link!

Possibly getting goats, few ????'s

P.S. The rule of thumb is 5 goats per acre. While that may be a bit extreme, get what you can and see how they work!

[Awnry Abe]

I am new to goats. Geez, I'm new to cattle too and know nothing about horses, so take this with a grain of salt. We just tore down a 40 acre perimeter fence that was a fence in name only and replaced it with 13/48/12 woven wire for our goats. We started with a herd of goats with horns intact, so woven wire had me concerned. But this stuff is so narrow at the base that they cant even poke their nose through. We used normal welded tubular gates and I overlaid them with goat panel to keep the goats in.

The field was previously divided into a 20 acre and two 10 acre paddocks for the cows. Grand opening was about two weeks ago, and so far everyone is staying in. I am still scratching my head trying to figure out how to make it multi-function for cattle and goats. The odd thing I can't figure out is why the goats cling to about 1 acre that they have nibbled to the nub when they have 39 other acres full of the things goats love.

I like the idea of of 5 10 acre paddocks based on your description and herd size for the cattle. I don't know about the horse load. The nice thing about dividing a large field up into smaller ones is that you can focus a smaller herd's grazing intensity a little better. Water is a challenge, though.

[CJBegins]

Copperhead, I appreciate your response. I actually read that thread before and forgot all about it.

Wow, 5 goats per acre......that would be lots of goats. Would you focus your purchases to a particular breed or to the cost effective larger size wethers and whatever hodgepodge you could put together.

I am thinking that if I can make this work and get the entire boundary fenced well enough for goats I will eventually use them on the entire 100 acres.

My biggest fear is disease. Probably a bad enough fear to not dive into a large purchase of goats. Maybe invest in fewer goats that come from tested herds.

[CJBegins]

CrownRanch, It's nice to see someone brave enough to take the dive. How did you make sure you were starting with a herd of healthy goats and how many did you start with?
As far as providing water, along the entire length of this field, on the other side of the fence is a series of 4 ponds that could be utilized for water source with possibly gravity draining. I have a freeze proof tank in the bank of one pond that I can "turn the water on too", (drain) should I go that route.

[Donna1982]

Just wondering why not stay with dairy goats? You said you have a few now. The only thing that worries me is the testing. I have not found one breeder here in my state that test. I know there are a few out there that do (some on this forum.) Dairy breeders its more a norm that they test.


Now that being said if you go with meat breed to you plan in eating them later? Might I suggest looking into a few dairy meat cross wethers? Our two we have grow fast and are meaty little guys.

[Awnry Abe]

Originally Posted by CJBegins

CrownRanch, It's nice to see someone brave enough to take the dive. How did you make sure you were starting with a herd of healthy goats and how many did you start with?

We didn't. We went in completely ignorant. We have a mixed herd of 18. I tend to learn from making unfortunate mistakes. Our first purchase was from my neighbor that had a couple of twin bottle fed boer does. I had never even seen a Boer before then and thought that "a goat was a goat". He told me they were "good" and therefore I thought they must be. They seemed to be thriving and still are. After caring over the winter for them and deciding that we could handle more, we purchased a small lot of doelings and a buckling from a breeder we found in the local rag. The breeder's premises were many orders of magnitude better than ours therefore we deemed these goats as "good". A few weeks later we added a FF Nubian with kids at the side. Because that breeder only raised registered dairy goats, we were easily impressed by the paperwork and deemed these goats as "good" as well. Finally in May my daughter sold her American girl dolls at our garage sale and parlayed her winnings into two LaMancha show goats. Using the same sophisticated goat evaluation system, we deemed these as "good". Add in a couple of day old bucklings that we adopted, bottle fed, and wethered, plus 3 live births and you have a herd. (Bottle fed wethers, as it turns out, I find are very useful).

"Oh my" the mistakes. By April of this year the overall health of the doelings had deteriorated due to poor management. We lost the runt of the group on Mother's Day. I have spent almost all of my "spare" time since trying to improve the situation and I won't stop until these animals have conditions that are top shelf. I am trying to pay more attention to the goat world as a whole whenever I can so that I will be able to discern the difference between "good" and "not so good" when presented with a purchasing opportunity. And with 40 freshly fenced acres, it is very tempting. (Not chasing goats = more "spare" time). But I am forcing myself to resist until I know more. Losing a kid is a horrible thing when it could have been prevented.

[Copperhead]

CrownRanch: Remember, this the first time your herd of goats has been in a big pasture. It's kinda like a teenager being kicked out of the nest and into the big world. The world gets really big, really quick, and the teenager feels very small and not nearly as cocky as he/she was only a minute ago. Anyway, goats are browsers and in a couple more weeks, they should band together as a herd and migrate from feed source to feed source. You can also move their salt/mineral/baking soda feeders away from their center of gravity, toward the brush you want eaten. On my 20+ acre pasture, the goats used to spend the majority of their time, tightly bunched together in the center of the hillside. A couple months later, they are much more relaxed, and dispersed. You would probably find all 15 within 1 acre's space instead of the space occupied by a small circus tent. You didn't mention one, but I assume you have a mature billy. If not, they go a long way to providing a balanced, natural herd. One that is a (little) bit aggressive will keep coyotes away while reminding the grand dames who is really in charge.

Here in WV, my problems are (1) Worms: no problem on brushy pasture, but a big problem when tightly penned. (2) Hoof Scald: you know that nasty mess between the toes of the hoof? Treated with Iodine and LA-200. (3) Pneumonia: Had two of my Does in milk contract pneumonia, diagnosed by congested coughing and fever (get a rectal thermometer). Treated with either LA-200 or Penicillin G, both for 5 consecutive days. Lost the first's Does' kid because I didn't realize what was happening in time, saved the 2nd Does' kids since I was more alert to the symptoms. Does in milk can make it on rich pasture and bountiful brush, but the milk breeds will lose conditon while growing heavy, almost chunky kids. Does in milk won't be able to make it on a dry lot on hay alone and will need grain to maintain condition. Grain, however, can cause urinating difficulty for bucks and wethers. Boys that need to regain condition due to worm difficulties in the winter get a mix of Alfalfa Pellets and BOSS (black oil sunflower seeds) in addition to free-choice hay. I'll add some finely chopped garlic and an egg to the mix but admit I rely on Ivermec for deworming. As far as hay goes, I specifically request my neighbors weediest hay -- the stuff that no horse person in their right mind would ever pay for Its a lot of fun watching the goats sort through their day's ration of hay to find that one piece of blackberry!

Carla: My goats are a hodgepodge. To put it simply, I am a poorboy and can't rationalize the thought of spending $400 on a goat, whose offspring would be lucky to fetch $100 at the meat auction. I might make a few enemies here, but CL and CAE are not considered significant in the meat market. So, I don't test and I don't worry. Having said, each of my "boys" (2 billies, 3 wethers) are former 4-H goats. I have a pure Kiko Billy and a BoerXPygmy Billy. I also have a standing offer with the local community to take any unwanted 4-H goats with no questions. I have, however, paid money for my "girls". I have 3 Kiko X mature Does: two of which, it turns out are crossed with Nubian, and I have 3 Boer X mature Does. The KikoX came bred or with a kid, while the BoerX are due beginning in Sept. I have two goats WithOUT horns -- I call them the "skin heads". I know . . . bad joke I understand how you want to keep your dairy goats clean and disease free. I would recommend maintaining 2 separate herds like they were 2 separate species: meat goats on pasture, diary goats in the barn or a nearby paddock. You might even want to change boots and wash hands before going from meat world to dairy world.

I have a horse and run her with the cows in the winter to simplify her feeding. During the summer, we keep her at the house so we can ride her more often. In my experience, horses are destructive to good pasture while cows and goats are constructive to good pasture. Horses eat the best into the ground (literally) and allow the worst to grow, thrive, and prosper. At least a cow is clumsy enough to trample about half of what they don't want to eat. I also subdivided my hillside into 12 separate acre-sized paddocks with a 30ft alley perimeter. it looks alot like H-H-H. In addition, I have a 30ft to 300ft section of timber on the ridge, and many large oaks and maples in the valley by the creek. Both areas are part of the Alley system and used for resting and shade. The creek provides water. I use a single HOT wire at 30"+/- to manage the cows and direct them into the paddock I want for them. The goats, however, scarcely recognize the existence of the single wire and have the run of the entire hillside. The goats and cows may peacefully co-exist together in the timber, but the goats avoid the paddock currently occupied by the cows.

As you might have figured, no matter how much I dote on and play with my goats, they are livestock with a purpose and not pets. My first and greatest financial return is the damage and overall destruction they do to the brush on my hillside. Last year, the cows ate the grass and allowed the brush to thrive. This year, the grass and weeds are outgrowing the brush, and the cows aren't keeping up My 2nd return is the joy of watching my 2 small children (boy 5, girl 4) play and interact with the baby goats. My last return is the cash received from the sale of wethers and unprofitable Does. Actually, haven't gotten to that 3rd point, yet, but it is coming. There aren't many goats in our community, but there are many more high-dollar and fancy bred goats than there is an actual market for them. The 4-H community can only support so much and it appears difficult to keep up with the whims of what shows best. A parent willing to spend $400 on a black, speckled Boer wether is also willing to travel to Virginia or Ohio or Kentucky to find the "perfect" goat for their 5th grader To me, the bottom line is the meat market, whether local sale or auction.

[CJBegins]

Lots to think about here....

I wouldn't use fb dairy goats for this due to the need to be milked. A dairy/meat cross would be ideal I would think.

Copperhead: do you pull your babies and bottle feed or let the mothers raise them. It would seem counter productive to bottle feed....hmmm.

I guess I need to really focus on adding to the existing fencing and then by the time that is done, look at what is available locally and make the decisions from there.

[KrisD]

I would go with dairy wethers personally. They are cheap, don't need milking, require less food in terms of grain and such, can always be sent to freezer camp or be sold for meat if you need to cull. Also much easier to find dairy stock that has been tested then meat stock.
Testing is cheap BTW through Biotracking and ou can do it yourself. There is also usually a surplus so they are easy to find.

[Copperhead]

No, I don't pull and bottle feed the babies. Honestly, when I purchased the two KikoX, I was hoping they were pregnant. Three weeks later, I had a really small white doeling with a red head appear as if by magic in my lot. A few weeks later, on Easter Sunday, I noticed my other KikoX not hanging with the crowd. We were fortunate to get to watch her deliver two healthy, very Nubian looking doelings. All have survived in good health. I sent the majority of the goats to the large pasture (about 4 miles away) in mid April, but I confess, I kept the two nursing mothers close to home until the little ones were about 3 months old. It was a selfish thing. They were just too cute not to watch.

The Boer looking doeling was named Aurora because she would disappear and we would have to go find her. Sometimes she was in a log pile of next years firewood in the lot, sometimes she was in a log pile just OUTSIDE of the lot. Always, she was fast asleep! (Hence the "Sleeping Beauty" nickname ) Miss Aurora was a jumper and, when she was a few weeks old, liked to climb on top of our bottle calves from last year. They were upto about 300 lbs. When she was a little over a month old, she would walk up beside them while they were standing, and jump onto their backs and ride around!!!

As far as cuteness, you couldn't top the Nubian twins. Also known as the "Monkey Twins", Blonde Monkey (the one with more white) and Browne Monkey (the one with more brown) were always up to something mischievious but usually harmless. They thought it was great fun to eat out of the hay net . . . from the top! They never got stuck except for the time my boy didn't close it properly and Browne Monkey climbed inside. OOPS!

Come September, My BoerX are due to begin having babies. I plan to leave them on pasture. I check on them about 3x a week. Birthing complications are an issue. If I have to significantly intervene to save the life of either the mother or baby, the mother goes to market. Other than the "Cute" factor, I expect them to give birth on pasture.

P.S. All 3 of the babies above have been on pasture for at least a month. They are all doing well and thriving. They and their mothers stay with the herd and travel and browse to their hearts content. When I last talked with my landlord, I referred to them as "Coyote Bait". Either we do not have a significant coyote population, or the coyotes have not been in the vicinity, or the horned herd scares them, or the big, black Angus Mommas scare them -- well, they are kinda aggressive to trespassers. They originally tried to stomp the goats when I first put the goats on pasture -- or else the fence with its 8-inch spacing and guaranteed HOT wire on the bottom has, to this date, discouraged trespassing. In case you didn't know, I have a Kencove Fence Compass which tells me I have between 6,000 and 8,000 volts on the fence

[CJBegins]

6000-8000 volts...ouch. My 2 joules charger will give out 6000 but I don't know about the 8000. My reader doesn't go that high.

I was talking to the local feed store owner about a weed that is really growing rapidly and it turns out it is sericea lespedeza. That stuff is thick and tall. Reading shows that is something that goats will eat and love.
Evidently, some people bale it...I wouldn't think the cows/horses would eat it baled if they won't eat it green.
The goats I have now usually don't go that far away from the house but I have seen them down there a time or two.