I'm lost in "Goat Nutrition"

[Justasiam1963]

I thought I had a mentor when I bought my first doe until the individual I bought from learned of my interest in making cheese and goat’s milk soap and then things changed. So, in many aspects of goat husbandry I feel really lost.

Could someone give me or direct me to where I can find (simple) instructions on what I need to be feeding my dairy goats (my county agent gives info that consist of a bunch of numbers and terms that mean nothing to me and they can't seem to explain it either!) And please don’t tell me to run a search on the internet. Whatever you want to believe is out there!!! Some of those people have never had a goat before!

My small herd does get the free choice mineral and baking soda but if I’m going to do this I really want to do it well! How much of "what" do you feed your goats?

Thank you for your help! I really appreciate it!

[PaulNKS]

I feed Purina Goat Chow. I believe it to be the best brand of feed on the market. The ONLY ones I feed are the ones I'm milking and then they don't get much. I keep out free choice mineral. They have plenty pasture and they get grass hay during the winter or if they are penned up, which is rare.

Purina is a well balanced feed with all the correct nutrients. You might be able to feed cheaper, but the quality won't be there.

The goats that aren't milking get no feed, except.... I put out 1/2 coffee can about every other day for almost 40 goats, just enough to taste so they will always come when called. If you have good browse and/or good grass, that goes a long way.

By the way... a lot of people give extra copper to goats. I don't. They don't need it if you are feeding free choice mineral. Actually, goats require less copper than cattle.

[KrisD]

Most people feed a good free choice hay, I have lush green pasture and woods for them so I don't.
On top of the I offer Alfalfa pellets (the small ones, I offer 1 pound of pellet per pound of milk. So if you doe milks a gallon a day that's about 8 pounds so offer 8 pound of pellets. Mine rarely eat it all unless it's winter.
I also feed 1/2 cup of Black Oil Sunflower Seeds to give them extra fat and nice shiny coats.
I give about 2 cups of a good concentrate on the milk stand. Some use Purina dairy goat chow but mine don't like it so I use Purina Stratedgy Heathy Edge, Nutrena has a version of it too an my girls will knock you down for it.
That's pretty much it.
Everyone feeds a little different but this is the basics, you can tweak it as you need to I.e some may get more some a little less, they may not like one brand etc.
There has been some information out there that alfalfa is a little too hot for their systems. That is a personal choice. Since mine have so much else to eat they rarely eat all that I have given them.

My goat kids get Purina Noble Goat grower because there is a coccidiastat in it so is much less for me to remember and worry about. I also feed it to the does about 3 weeks before they are due to about 2 weeks after they give birth.

I hope this helps. We are all here to help so please ask any questions you have. We mentor each other.

[KrisD]

Paul I beg to differ goats need lots of copper. Maybe you live in an area that has a lot of copper naturally but that is rarely the case. Sheep don't need copper but goats need lots of it.

[Minelson]

Mine are mini's and pets. I feed free choice good grass hay, Free choice Cargill Right Now Onyx minerals, free choice baking soda. At night they get 1 cup of alfalfa pellets and 1/2 cup BOSS for the 3 of them that they share. Frankie (wether) gets a daily dosage ball with Amonium Chloride in it to prevent Urinary Calculi. They free range the 10 acres of pastures and browse during the day. Right now they are barely touching the hay I have out with all the browse and pastures in full swing

[ozark_jewels]

Keep it simple.
Quality hay free choice.
Whatever browse they can get is great.
Loose mineral and fresh water.
Whatever animals are growing or working should get some simple feed.

My milkers get whole oats and BOSS, as do my working bucks and growing kids. Thats all I feed. The milkers get 1-3 lbs grain per day(usually its 1-2 lbs per day, what they can eat while I milk), the bucks get a cup or two each during breeding season. The kids get a small ration morning and evening after the lambar bucket.

Some people feed bagged feeds and that may be the best choice for you. In which case I'd reccomend a simple All Grain or Dairy feed. You do not have to feed "goat" grain and it tends to be more expensive. Just look for a grain with simple *grain* ingredients.
I personally found Purina and Kent to be lousy and would never feed it. I didn't like how my goats did on any of the brand "goat" feeds I tried. I love how they do on my simple feed mix
Everyone finds something that works for them. See what your feed store carries, shop around.
Loose minerals are important, but goats need MORE copper than cattle, not less. Most areas are copper deficient. I feed a loose cattle mineral and also copper bolus twice a year. I see definate differences with this management. Watch your does carefully, if you see signs of deficiency, consider bolusing.

See if you can find someone in your area who has a healthy herd of goats, preferably has had goats for more than 5 years, and see if they will share their experiences with you.

[chewie]

I love purina noble goat, but its expensive so am doing what others suggested, mixing it with whole oats. actually, the mix I use is a horse mix my local place does themselves, has mostly oats, a smattering of cracked corn and some minerals, just enough molassas to cut the dust. mixing it with the noble goat dairy parlor 16%, 2/3parlor, 1/3 grain. they love it, look great, and milk well. holding their weight on too, one likes to get real skinny but isn't this year.

the one doe who lost her kids isn't milking much, so only gets mayb 2/3lb, mornings, and again at night if she's smart enough to come up for it. she's flighty and I wont' chase her down to feed her. she does have another kid on her all day tho., so isn't 'full'.

the others who are milking well get 1.5lb of that mix, twice a day. full choice alf hay, and I am very picky that my buckets/tubs for water are clean and fresh. milk is mostly water and I want them to drink as much as they want. onyx minerals and soda.

I have found this place a huge source of reliable help, so you'll do fine! I like that there are lots of opinions but seldom a squabble over 'who's right'. what works here may not work elsewhere and having options is great.

[prairiedog]

We feed like Emily. Learned it from her

[PaulNKS]

Originally Posted by KrisD

Paul I beg to differ goats need lots of copper. Maybe you live in an area that has a lot of copper naturally but that is rarely the case. Sheep don't need copper but goats need lots of it.

Correct that sheep can't tolerate copper, but it is a myth that goats need lots of copper.... purely myth. Yes, they need some, but not even as much as cows. If you buy a loose mineral of good quality, there is plenty copper for goats. Do the research from credible sources such as the extension research.

Where this myth got started I can only imagine it came from someone that is a supposedly good source online and then it was perpetuated exponentially in places like these forums.

The problem is that most goat owners do NOT give free choice mineral to their goats and those are the goats that are usually copper deficient.

[ozark_jewels]

Originally Posted by PaulNKS

Where this myth got started I can only imagine it came from someone that is a supposedly good source online and then it was perpetuated exponentially in places like these forums.

The problem is that most goat owners do NOT give free choice mineral to their goats and those are the goats that are usually copper deficient.

Or maybe its because breeders who actually have goats, longtime and shorttime breeders, have experienced the high copper needs themselves.

I have always fed good high copper minerals, and still see huge improvements with copper bolusing. I see it now in my small herd of 30 and I saw it when I started bolusing in my herd of almost 200.

I'm not the only one by a long shot. Thank goodness for my mentors when I started. I used their years of experience to make my decisions.

[PaulNKS]

Originally Posted by ozark_jewels

Or maybe its because breeders who actually have goats, longtime and shorttime breeders, have experienced the high copper needs themselves.

I have always fed good high copper minerals, and still see huge improvements with copper bolusing. I see it now in my small herd of 30 and I saw it when I started bolusing in my herd of almost 200.

I'm not the only one by a long shot. Thank goodness for my mentors when I started. I used their years of experience to make my decisions.

My only concern is that if a person gives too much copper to goats, over time, it can kill them by building up in their system. Also, as I stated, do the research. I used to think a lot of copper was necessary because I listened to everyone. But, after doing the research, I found that too much copper is much more dangerous than not enough copper.

***if goats get enough browse and free choice mineral, they will have more than enough copper intake*** DO THE RESEARCH

[mygoat]

Originally Posted by PaulNKS

Correct that sheep can't tolerate copper, but it is a myth that goats need lots of copper.... purely myth. Yes, they need some, but not even as much as cows. If you buy a loose mineral of good quality, there is plenty copper for goats. Do the research from credible sources such as the extension research.

Where this myth got started I can only imagine it came from someone that is a supposedly good source online and then it was perpetuated exponentially in places like these forums.

The problem is that most goat owners do NOT give free choice mineral to their goats and those are the goats that are usually copper deficient.

I looked at the National Academies Press - ya know, the ones that publish the Nutrient Requirements of all sorts of critters. I have the one for Small ruminants. And awesomely, you can search all of them online except the Small Ruminants one is apparently not viewable - not sure why. They have the intro page and the summary up but none of the other chapters. I've used it before online... odd.

According to NAC Small Ruminant Nutrition, goats were once treated as sheep with copper, that was found to be much too low. Studies then increased the levels of copper very high to find goats tolerate it VERY well with no signs of toxicity at 60mg/kg dry matter. One study showed increased average daily gain, feed efficiency, and enhanced immune responses when fed a rate of 13.8mg Cu per kg dry matter.

Anywho, NAC suggests lactating goats at 15mg/kg dry matter fed per day, mature bucks/goats to 20mg/kg dry matter fed, and growing goats to 25mg/kg dry matter fed - allowing for adjustments for molybdenum and sulfur in diet (no mention of Iron affecting abs for goats, though). Keep in mind lactating goats usually consume MUCH more kg dry matter per day than other goats, so their rate of intake is much higher than the other goats - for those of you like me who were initially confused.

For dairy cows: (1.5-2.0mg/kg dry matter)
Nutrient Requirements of Dairy Cattle: Seventh Revised Edition, 2001

For beef cows: (10mg/kg dry matter)
Nutrient Requirements of Beef Cattle: Seventh Revised Edition: Update 2000

So yes, physically cows take in MORE copper because they are bigger. But the RATE that goats need it is MUCH higher than cows.

[PaulNKS]

Originally Posted by mygoat

Anywho, NAC suggests lactating goats at 15mg/kg dry matter fed per day, mature bucks/goats to 20mg/kg dry matter fed, and growing goats to 25mg/kg dry matter fed - allowing for adjustments for molybdenum and sulfur in diet (no mention of Iron affecting abs for goats, though). Keep in mind lactating goats usually consume MUCH more kg dry matter per day than other goats, so their rate of intake is much higher than the other goats - for those of you like me who were initially confused.

Goats will get more than that just from browse alone. For a simpler explanation....

http://www.dairygoatjournal.com/issues/87/87-3/coppers_role_in_goat_health.html

What disturbs me is that people here and in other forums immediately and without question will take what others have to say without any merit when it may do more harm than good. To me it is very irresponsible to make recommendations based on hearsay rather than science when it can be detrimental.

I realize the importance of experience.... however, if a goat is given too much copper, it is not easily seen until it is too late. If a goat looks good, feels good, etc. it is most likely due to other factors such as deworming, feed and/or browse quality, not copper.

[mrs.H]

Justasiam1963 where are you located, and how much land are your goats on. My little heard is basically dry-loted. Their pen is less that half an acre, so they would quickly starve to death if I followed Paul's advice. His situation is not my situation. We need more info before we can give you usable advice.

Some folks have a high iron content in their water that inhibits copper absorption, that affects how much copper you will need to give your goats also. Absolutely do your research. Watch out for folks with a chip on their shoulder that know every thing about every where.

I'm in N. GA. Some of our folks are in Canada, some in Washington, some in AZ and every other state in the union. Our locations dictate that we have different herd management.

[mygoat]

High iron, high molybdenum, and high sulfur can all inhibit Cu absorption. Main feeds fed to goats (alfalfa, oats) are high in molybdenum and low in copper. And, only a small fraction of copper taken in is absorbed.

Also, some places are deficient. I, for one, am in lower ppm county, and also have sandy soils which are known to have low soil copper levels. If it's not in the browse/hay/grain, the goats can't get it.

And finally, not everybody has access to ample browse. I know with my 20 or so goats on 2 acres of pasture, it starts to look like a well manicured park. They still go out to graze, but how much are they actually taking in? I feed free choice alfalfa hay, and who knows what soil quality is like where that is grown - though it's just a county over and according to the map is just slightly higher than ours. Also, your grains you feed may be grown in deficient soils.

Want some maps?

Copper in Counties of the Conterminous States

Want a study and some data?

COPPER DEFICIENCY IN DAIRY GOATS

I agree, MANY people go overboard with goats in many aspects. As with most things, many people don't do the research and just do what people tell them to do no matter if the situations could be drastically different... And get scorned if you don't follow the 'herd'. But I've done the research, and for my area copper bolusing seems to be the best idea. I have seen the bleaching coats, rough coats, fishtail, worm load, and unthrifty growth associated with copper deficiencies in the past when they had just a loose mineral - the best I could find in my area. Since copper bolusing I don't see these issues anymore. Hopefully someday I'll actually get my soil tested because it can vary drastically within a county, and put copper down in the pastures then forget about copper bolusing except maybe in the winter when they're getting only hay grown off-farm. When my next adult goat dies I'm considering doing a liver test, as well as with a meat kid liver who purposefully has not been bolused. Pricy, but would be interesting to get the results.

[Pony]

Originally Posted by PaulNKS

Goats will get more than that just from browse alone. For a simpler explanation....

http://www.dairygoatjournal.com/issues/87/87-3/coppers_role_in_goat_health.html

What disturbs me is that people here and in other forums immediately and without question will take what others have to say without any merit when it may do more harm than good. To me it is very irresponsible to make recommendations based on hearsay rather than science when it can be detrimental.

I realize the importance of experience.... however, if a goat is given too much copper, it is not easily seen until it is too late. If a goat looks good, feels good, etc. it is most likely due to other factors such as deworming, feed and/or browse quality, not copper.

I'd love to see the research you report on that anecdotally demonstrates goats suffering from copper toxicity.

What experience do you have with copper deficiency in goats?

What experience do you have with copper toxicity in goats?

Have you been dairying long?

[Alice In TX/MO]

Well, he sure can't be talking to me.

I cite sources with a passion.

I'd like answers to your questions, too,

[Goat Servant]

The only incident of copper toxidity I know of was from a friend. Somehow the feed company put in way too much copper. This was years ago.
She lost alot of goats that year. Copper toxidity showed up in necropsy of livers.

[Cannon_Farms]

goat servant since the science has not been done they base copper toxicity based on sheep values, as of me doing tons of research last year there was no known level for goats.
I'd suggest a thread being opened up instead of hijacking this one.

now as far as me and my goats are concerned I have tried every diet heard on here and the best milk and least costly is Cob, which is corn oats and barley I like black oil sunflower seeds but they are just too costly. I use all grain from etc and mix a bag of alfalfa with it then they get rye grass hay they won't eat alfalfa hay and will only eat pellets if mixed into grain. This makes sweet drinking milk and they produce very well off it. I like the omoleene feeds if higher fat is needed or if all grain isn't available.
I personally don't like the milk noble goat dairy or goat chow produces and stay away from high soy feeds. I also use dumor pasture minerals but also researched my area to find what was best for my area because that can vary greatly between counties and states.

my diet is roughly 19% total protein which is more than what is needed , 5% fat. Stay away from high crude protein its un useable for the goat and they poop enough as it is. There is a calculator out there to get a total of self made feeds. Btw this diet works for meat or dairy.
I'll try and post pics of my goats to show the results of said diet.

[suzyhomemaker09]

See...now I'll throw a completely different tangent into this equation.
I have dairy goats...we live in a copper deficient area so we bolus ours 2 times a year....
We also have Icelandic sheep which *NEED* to have copper in their diet...I put out a mineral blend of goat minerals and cattle minerals and so far this works for us.
It's much like Selenium ..one needs to know the rates for the area they live in...as with all minerals...not to be a great scientist but some block the absorption of others...so there are great maps available to show you what you are deficient on and what you have in abundance.
What *IS* important is knowing what ratios your animals need and the best method of fixing deficiencies.