Questions On CAE, CL & Johnnes testing?

Backfourty,MI. · #1 04/29/12, 11:08 AM

We are looking into getting Registered, disease tested Mini Nubians & will probably sell the unregistered other goats that we have.

My question is I've contacted several breeders that have registered & tested goats & yes I will ask for copies or at least to see their test results.
So once you buy disease free tested goats I don't understand why you need to get them tested every year?

If they never leave my property & I don't bring in anymore goats, say I test again in 6 months or a year after their here & they are all still clean do I still need to test annually?
I would not be taking these goats to shows, etc. they would strictly be on our property.

Pony · #2 04/29/12, 02:14 PM

I test annually for CAE to make sure that someone wasn't a "sleeper" who tests positive after a major stressor (illness, etc).

I don't test for CL or Johnnes. I monitor for CL, and (IMO) Johnnes testing is not sufficiently conclusive for me to make a keep/cull determination based on lab work.

I can see not worrying so much about CAE in the long run if you absolutely positively do not allow in any milk or animals that are questionable in any way, but the other two? Those pathogens could enter through various vectors, and you must be exceedingly strict about bio-security.

Backfourty,MI. · #3 04/29/12, 03:52 PM

What other vectors I'm wondering do you mean Pony?

CaliannG · #4 04/29/12, 04:56 PM

Deer can spread CL, CAE and Johnne's. And since they are a bit difficult to control, they can often get on your property. Cattle can carry CL and other diseases, and if the break onto your property, there may be a problems. There are vectors for many things in the wild.

That is one of the reasons that I continue to test yearly, even though, so far (knock on wood), everyone has been negative. I also don't take my goats to shows or places where they could pick up nasties. If something DOES end up on my place, I would rather cull one or two goats than have to deal with a full herd infection.

Lots of folks test 3 years in a row, keep a closed herd, and declare themselves clean. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

CaliannG · #5 04/29/12, 05:00 PM

Also, by testing yearly, you have a better chance of remembering a possible vector. It's more difficult to recall if you have had a fence break in the last 5 years than if you have had one within the last year.

I tend to test right before breeding season, so that I can at least show the dam results to any possible buyers of kids. That's another thing you will likely be thinking of with registered stock, is that you will probably be selling your surplus kids....and people that are buying registered stock are going to want to see your paperwork.

**mygoat** · #6 04/29/12, 06:49 PM

DEER can spread CAE? I don't know about that. Most diseases, thankfully, have a fairly short incubation time - 6 months for most. If you test a few years in a row you could *probably* claim disease free.

Johnes scares the bejeebus out of me. Test are ACCURATE, it's the bacterium lifestyle that makes testing *somewhat* unreliable. That's why testing often is important. I start testing at 6 months and test yearly. Some say infection may not be positive until 2 years old. The idea is to catch them before they kid out because kids are the ones that pick it up.

I work at DCPAH at MSU. Talking to the man who does Johnes testing, he was telling me that most chrones patients can be traced back to being raw milk - either cow or goat - drinkers as children. Infection can be slow growing in humans, and may not show signs until mid 20's in humans.

He also said that they got johnes to culture from 3% of pasteurized milk simply taken off of store shelves.

Scary business. Currently the head honcho of the johnes world and the head honcho of chrones disease are collaborating to try and get the Johne's bug (Mycobacterium paratuberculosis) called zoonotic so that it is regulated in the dairy world and testing is required. I'm not sure it'll go or not - can you imagine what owuld happen to the dairy world, hurting as it is? By the time testing is accurate, a heifer is just reaching her first calving. IF she's positive, there goes all that money spent to raise her, get her pregnant, and breed her for her first calf.

Cliff · #7 04/29/12, 07:02 PM

Mygoat thank you so much for that information. Can cow Johne's infect goats and vice versa?
I know for a fact that we drank Johne's milk several years ago before we knew what was wrong with the cow. Nobody sick so far but I will remember what you said...

I am not one for government regulation but Johne's testing needs to be regulated somehow AND disposal of positive animals needs to be regulated as well. As of now if the cow doesn't look too bad she is just hauled to the sale barn where she poops all over everything in site exposing many many animals and then possibly goes to another farm

Haven't had the issue so far with goats, just cows and not recently.

CaliannG · #8 04/29/12, 07:18 PM

Deer carry the same form of retrovirus that causes CAE as goats do. Transmission? No more or less as transmission between positive adult goats and negative adult goats...not common, but not completely rare either.

Thanks for the information on Johnne's and Crohn's. I knew that Crohn's came from Johnne's positive milk, but didn't know how it happened.

Sp pasteurization is not a completely reliable way of getting rid of Johnne's in milk? Interesting.

Backfourty,MI. · #9 04/29/12, 08:32 PM

Thanks everyone, I guess I better learn to draw blood it sounds like or have a vet come out to do it each year. We don't & won't do goat shows, the fairs, etc. but we do have a lot of deer & other wild critters & our 40 acres isn't fenced & even if it was I've seen deer jump a 6 foot fence standing still.
We do plan on having a closed herd otherwise but sounds like I will still need to test each year at least for a long time.

Pony · #10 04/29/12, 09:18 PM

Johnne's main vector of transmission is feces. Sadly, I have seen a goat (beautiful doe) contract Johnne's from positive cows on the same farm.

Infected poo on boots, tracked to your place, can be a danger to your animals.

I find it helpful to keep disinfectant in the car if I'm going to be somewhere questionable.

Backfourty,MI. · #11 04/29/12, 09:50 PM

We don't wear our farm boots to someone else's farm & then back on our farm. When we do visit another farm I wash the boots we wear in front of the garage on the cement with soapy bleach water too.
Our garage is over 200 feet from the barn & our goats never come up around the garage so that's good too.

Pony · #12 04/29/12, 10:31 PM

The problem with Johne's (why do I always add an extra "n" to that?) is its persistent presence in beef herds. They, of course, all die young b/c they are butchered. But if your dairy runs with your meat cows, they're going to get it. It's still THERE in the feces, but no one seems to care because their stay on farms is so short. (Sound like any disease in goat world?)

A friend's beautiful and friendly dairy doe contracted Johne's from their cows, and it did not take her nearly as long as the cows to become symptomatic. It was very sad indeed.

Cliff · #13 04/30/12, 06:39 AM

There is a school of thought that if cows are fed absolutely no grain they can overcome Johne's. I wonder if that would apply to goats as well. I read an article in Acres or SGF about this years ago. The author had before and after pics of a bull who had tested positive and was in bad shape who reportedly got well when put on only pasture and ended up testing negative. I don't remember how long it took but it was a while, maybe one or two years. It was one of the things that finally prompted me to go completely grain free even with my dairy cows - was already leaning that way because of the research that was coming out about the health benefits of grass fed.

If this is true maybe it is why dairy cows seem to have such a higher incidence than beef cows?

ETA - You know I was just thinking a little more about this and it makes sense from a gut perspective. Grains cause a much more acid gut. People seem to have the same reaction of better health and healing from illness from consuming a less acid forming diet. Bacteria can be pretty sensitive about the environments they can actually thrive in.

Alice In TX/MO · #14 04/30/12, 08:01 AM

With all respect, I don't see why having Johne's declared zoonotic would make any difference in how animals are handled, tested, etc. CL is transmissible to humans, and there's no outcry on that at all.

susanne · #15 04/30/12, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG

Deer can spread CL, CAE and Johnne's. And since they are a bit difficult to control, they can often get on your property. Cattle can carry CL and other diseases, and if the break onto your property, there may be a problems. There are vectors for many things in the wild.

That is one of the reasons that I continue to test yearly, even though, so far (knock on wood), everyone has been negative. I also don't take my goats to shows or places where they could pick up nasties. If something DOES end up on my place, I would rather cull one or two goats than have to deal with a full herd infection.

Lots of folks test 3 years in a row, keep a closed herd, and declare themselves clean. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

very unlikely that deer transmit cae to goats.
never even heard of it

bknthesdle · #16 09/11/12, 04:01 PM

What is the most accurate (if you can call it that) test for Johne's? Blood or Fecal?

CaliannG · #17 09/11/12, 04:07 PM

Fecal is the most accurate test. Blood is the most convenient test, since most folks are pulling for several tests at once.

**mygoat** · #18 09/11/12, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

With all respect, I don't see why having Johne's declared zoonotic would make any difference in how animals are handled, tested, etc. CL is transmissible to humans, and there's no outcry on that at all.

MAP is sooooo different and much more of a health threat to humans. Think of how FEW people get CL, and how the disease transmission occurs in either case. VASTLY different.

So yes, it would likely be handled differently due to a different health threat.

Abscesses are easily visible and carcasses with more than 2 internal abscesses are discarded last I heard. Though, the form of Coryne pseudTB that COWS get get might not be transmissible to humans (it's a different biotype than the kind goats/sheep get, and that is the form that people have gotten from interacting with sheep/goats, from what I understand) and it also doesn't show up as abscesses in cows but skin lesions on the legs.
CL disease progresses much more quickly and is hard to 'miss' in goats/sheep. Pasterurizing milk and cooking meat are VERY effective at killing Coryne pseudoTB... Arguable if MAP is as easily killed (probably OK after thorough cooking - but we all know those medium-rare steaks could be an issue...

) and different pasteurizing temps/methods (or simply that the bacteria is so rediculously hardy) means it survives better.

MAP has a super long incubation time, is super hardy, is transmissible through milk, meat, body fluids, possibly in utero. Think of how many people are drinking milk from Johnes pos dairy herds EVERY DAY. How many people do you think are exposed to CL every day? So few it's not even worth worrying about.

I do want to mention that CULTURED from pasteurized milk doesn't necessarily mean that it's enough MAP to cause disease in humans. Our immune systems are amazing things and can fight off most non-self things fairly well. but considering we're almost constantly exposed even low level increases our chances of infection. Pasteurizing is still probably the *best* way to produce safe milk to the vast majority of people. It is never going to eliminate issues, but it will REDUCE the number of bacteria.

And yes, Johnes is pretty big problem on dairy herds. It is pretty common in beef herds, but the comment that it's MORE of a problem in beef cows is relative. It's common in both. Though here in the US we consume so much beef and dairy it doesn't really matter which type of cow has it 'more'.

With crohns disease, a person who is exposed as a child may not show symptoms for DECADES. Often shows up in people in their 20's.

Johnes fecal sample is MOST accurate, but due to the organism's life cycle (they are fecal-oral spread and are shed primarily in feces) regular testing is EXTREMELY important. An animal can start shedding any point after true infection occurs, and incubation time can vary. An animal with an active infection will have antibody titers in blood, hence the use of ELISA as a basic check often works well. Fecal samples are 'expensive', but are often ran as pools of fecals. For example, they're usually about 25.00 for a fecal culture, but you can have up to 5 animals in the pool - so 5.00/animal overall cost. There are false positives due to other bacteria growing in the culuture, but those are easy to distinguish with PCR looking for MAP DNA. Individual poo can then be ran as a culture when a pool comes up positive for a lower 'per sample' fee - usually like 16.00/sample in the pool (so 5 animals x 16.00 per sample). If you're negative, it's cheaper, but it's also more accurate for finding and weeding out positives.