Feeding a grown doe milk...

CaliannG · #1 04/19/12, 10:54 PM

Could anyone tell me why this is bad, and maybe a link to a study or vet manual or something somewhere?

JBarGFarmKeeper and Chaty mentioned in another thread that this is bad for a goat's rumen, and when I mentioned it to my DH, he guiltily admitted that, when he milks, he gives the does sips as treats.

I tried to look up any problems with it, but it seems my research skills on this subject are sub-par. I was only able to turn up a couple of forum threads where it was mentioned, but nothing concrete.

So can anyone tell me if a doe drinking milk is bad for her rumen, and link something that says why? Thanks so much!

JBarGFarmKeeper · #2 04/19/12, 11:15 PM

http://scholarsresearchlibrary.com/A...-1-645-650.pdf

Here's one...says only small amounts

LoneStrChic23 · #3 04/19/12, 11:27 PM

Hmmm..... Sabrina always got to drink milk after kidding..... I sold the kids, had too much & I won't touch the milk for at least a week after kidding.... So she got to drink about a quart at a time, twice a day.... In fact she was desparate for it, wanted milk before her grain..... but her craving for milk only lasted 3 days after kidding, tops, then she wasn't really interested in it..... Did this 2 years in a row, no problems, and she milked over a gallon by 3 days fresh each time....

Not saying this is my recommendation for others to do.... I was just told by her previous owner that it was her quirk, and she'd done it since her first freshening and it never lasted more than a few days....

LoneStrChic23 · #4 04/19/12, 11:32 PM

Not to mention, I thought when a goat drank, most of that did NOT go into the rumen..... A regular flooding of the rumen when drinking would damage the rumen flora.... So if I'm not way out in left feild, then if drinking milk (and not being drenched with it) most wouldn't end up in the rumen anyways, therefore It would be more like drinking vitamin water as milk has a great deal of water in it....

Any of that make sense, and am I way out there? I swear I read somewhere that when drinking the rumen is not flooded with all that fluid....

CaliannG · #5 04/19/12, 11:49 PM

What they drink goes to the rumen, Crystal: Cambridge Journals Online - Abstract

~smiles~ It seems, from that study, that excessive drinking after going without tended to wash out protozoa, but not bacteria. Weird, huh?

Thanks for the link, Gena! It *hints* at the problems, but I sure wish that it was a bit more informative. At least, I know WHY a doe would want to drink milk (calcium deficiency), and why she would stop liking it (calcium deficiency gets taken care of). But milk does mess with the pH balance of the rumen.

Maybe when Alice settles in, she'll chime in too?

chamoisee · #6 04/20/12, 12:12 AM

The does I fed milk to seemed to do fine; seemed to improve actually, but they were very heavy milkers on a lousy diet of limited grain and pasture, no hay at all during the summer.

rootsandwings · #7 04/20/12, 06:06 AM

most mammals lose their ability to fully digest milk as adults. Lactose tolerant humans are a mutation.

Alice In TX/MO · #8 04/20/12, 06:42 AM

Goodness gracious, ladies. This one is way out of my knowledge base.

I'll google after I milk this morning.

April · #9 04/20/12, 09:35 AM

I looked around on pubmed, but couldn't find anything with the searches I was using. I found one study where the researchers were infusing butterfat into a cannulated rumen to see what effect it would have on milkfat. I couldn't figure out the benefit of that one.

JBarGFarmKeeper · #10 04/20/12, 10:43 AM

Here is another link that talks about anatomy and physiology of the rumen development (bottom of page). Very interesting as to why a little milk is ok (as that part of the rumen shrinks when the ruminant is weaned). The oveflow of the abomasum is what causes the "over-eating" disease (the c & d perfrinigens to over populate.) Anyway, this has been educational and now I understand more of the "whys".

Feeding the Dairy Herd

CaliannG · #11 04/20/12, 12:11 PM

You have helped me research, Gena, thank you!

I found a "why" in "Goat Medicine" By Mary C. Smith, David M. Sherman.

"An esophageal or reticular groove is present in the goat and reflexively closes in response to suckling in the neonate, allowing the milk to bypass the rumenoriculum and directly enter the abomasum via the omasal groove. This reflex wanes after weaning and is vestigial in adults."

So, in babies, milk goes directly to the abomasum, which best handles digesting it, but in adults, it goes into the rumen, then the omasan, then finally the abomasum. Since adults lack the lactase production of babies, milk given to adult goats cannot be fully used.

~ponders~ While it seems that feeding milk to an adult doe *might* not cause harm (although it does affect the pH balance of the rumen some), I can't see how it would HELP much either. Looks like it would be a waste of milk, and one would be better off top dressing the doe's feed with calcium carbonate instead.

Anyone else want to chime in on pros and cons?

chamoisee · #12 04/20/12, 12:17 PM

Even if it isn't fully used, it is still free; well not free, but unless you have a market for the milk or can use it all, it might as well be free....from my point of view if the doe could use some of it, in reasonably small quantities, it's better than wasting it. JMHO.

GoldenWood Farm · #13 04/20/12, 12:23 PM

I have actually fed does milk who where on the skinnier side or where getting over milk fever. I noticed it improved their coats, helped put on some weight and helped them get over the milk fever faster. I never had any adverse issues from feeding the does milk.

Justine

CaliannG · #14 04/20/12, 12:33 PM

Oh, chamoisee, I am certainly not going to ever be pouring milk down the drain before feeding it to a doe! ~smiles~ But I have plenty of critters that can make more use of it, it seems.

I am more interested in what feeding milk does or doesn't do, both positive and negative.

As for milk fever, I don't fool around with that. Milk fever KILLS does, and if one of my does comes down with the slightest symptoms, she is getting CMPK shots, oral drenches of calcium, and even her hay will be dressed with calcium carbonate. I am exceptionally proactive when it comes to that problem, and any doe that has HAD even a slight brush with it will have her calcium intake adjusted to account for that forever more.

There are some things that I will go for natural, home remedies for....but there are some that I won't even consider that route, and I go straight for the tried and true pharmaceuticals proven by science to work.

chamoisee · #15 04/20/12, 12:36 PM

Yeah, I think maybe it is an individual choice. For me, my does were so thin, they were producing so much milk that I didn't have enough gallon jars or room to store it, and not enough other animals to feed it to. It made sense for my situation, kept my does from getting thinner...but as with so many other things, ones mileage may vary.

LoneStrChic23 · #16 04/20/12, 01:02 PM

Ok, lol I'm not crazy (I think?? I hope??)..... Someone here on this forum was chatting about fluids drank didn't fill the rumen..... Perhaps Donna or Ashley?? Vickie has told me the same as well over the phone, though she didn't say which chamber most of the fluids went..... Searched for "flooding rumen" on DGI, same thing, discusses it in a few post, but no mention of what chamber though......

This is going to drive me nuts, because my google searches are coming up with nothing.... Lots of goodies about the complex digestive tract of young ruminants & the changes they go through, but nothing specifically on this.....

One thread on here we were discussing giving molasses water to a doe with some issue, and the concern of molasses upsetting rumen flora was brought up, and then was dismissed as most of it wouldn't end up in the rumen anyways.....

I could have swore it was Donna or Ashley commenting on that thread...... One of y'all chime in and reassure me that I'm not delusional & making up fictional threads in my head....

Is it a sign that you've officially lost it if you make up threads & then commit them to memory?

There may be no help left for me

CaliannG · #17 04/20/12, 01:13 PM

Not a sign of craziness, Crystal...but we all know how much misinformation can get passed off as "truth" because someone's grandfather raised goats for 60 years, and that's what HE said about them. Science is discovering new things all the time, but new facts take time to overcome old beliefs. (I.e., running bucks with does causes bad tasting milk, copper bolusing kills goats, feeding goats alfalfa will make them sick, etc., etc. we have heard it all.)

According to the goat-specific science I have found, liquids DO by-pass the rumen, *until the goat is weaned*. After that, the reflex that allows liquids to bypass the rumen becomes stunted.

Studies HAVE shown that the reflex can be stimulated in adult goats, in two ways: Either with certain drugs, which are used when they want to give the animal a medication that would be broken down too much in the rumen, OR by denying them any water for two or three days. If they are severely dehydrated, the reflex will kick back in and put whatever they drink directly to the stomach that does the most liquid absorption (The abomasum).

Other than that, though, in healthy, adult goats, liquids that they drink go to the rumen.

**mygoat** · #18 04/20/12, 01:17 PM

Well, for one, it's a great way to spread disease. That's how my CAE negative doe picked up CAE from the other doe I owned, many years ago. She stole raw milk out of the bucket if you weren't careful. She learned how to flip the lid off of the top if I set it on the floor.

It doesn't JUST spread CAE, either. One can imagine abortative diseases spreading that way, too.

But the MAIN reason is that as a goat matures they loose ability to shunt milk right to the abomasum via the omasal groove. Also, the production of Rennet, which coagulates the milk into solids, is lost with age. Milk can be digested to some extent... but not very well. I imagine doing it often or long term would result in some funky issues because a goat's rumen is specificially designed to digest cellulose.

Oat Bucket Farm · #19 04/20/12, 03:02 PM

The one self sucker I had must have retained her ability to send the milk to right stomach. She gave three quarts a milking when she didn't suck, but most days she did and we were lucky to get a half a quart. She guzzled a lot of milk off herself.

GoldenWood Farm · #20 04/20/12, 03:29 PM

To clarify when I said I have fed milk to does who had come down with milk fever I treated them just like you normally would for milk fever with calcium injections and what not the milk was just a added bonus for the girls seeing as they wouldn't eat much to get calories and I figured the extra calcium from the milk wouldn't hurt either. It was never in replacement of any other treatment for milk fever.

Justine