Death from banding?

thaiblue12 · #1 04/15/12, 03:55 PM

I have banded over 30 of my own boys, older boys that were not mine, banded friends boys and nothing has ever happened. I do the same thing everytime, Banamine 30 mins before, CD&T at the time of, I check for nipples, make sure both are in the band, put the band on, then I re-check testicles, nipples, hair and done. Some even with pain killer act like they are dying, others just bounce off. I make sure they are walking fine and keep an eye on them through out the day.

I sold a doe two weeks ago with her 5 week old kids, I banded him at 5 weeks old. She just emailed me that the boy did not seem sick, but then he suddenly became ill they had to put him down today because he went septic from the banding is what the vet said. She is not angry and the vet said it happens.
I feel awful, I have never had it happen or heard of it. I do not sell goats or kids that are less then 100% and he seemed perfectly fine when he left and was fine for 2 weeks. I offered them another boy for free, weaned so a bit older and done with the banding process. Her son is upset and that makes me upset.

Did I do something wrong?
Does this happen sometimes?

Of course ran out and checked all the other boys I banded at the same time and there is no wound, sore or issues, they are all dried up and the boys seem fine. I would like to ask her more questions but since it just happened this morning I will wait.

This is so not the Year of the Goat. It is sure the year of issues, problems and coyotes.

FunnyRiverFarm · #2 04/15/12, 04:15 PM

Yes, it happens...most of the time it happens when they are banded too small and the blood supply doesn't get cut off very well...but it is possible at other times too. At 5 weeks it should have been okay so I guess it was just one of those odd times. It is just one of the risks associated with banding. It can be avoided by using a burdizzo tool for castration.

Jyllie63 · #3 04/15/12, 04:33 PM

I actually wonder if it's just a "vet guess" and that might not be the problem at all. I'm sorry he didn't make it. I know you take great care of your goats!

Our Little Farm · #4 04/15/12, 04:37 PM

Never had it happen here either. I cannot see where you did anything wrong at all. Don't beat yourself up about it. It may have been something on their end that caused a problem.

chma4 · #5 04/15/12, 05:35 PM

I have had a little guy get a bad infection, but we noticed the problem before he got too sick. The vet actually banded off the infection, said my original band may have not been tight enough. We put him on three days of pro pen g and kept an eye on it. The infection that the vet banded actually fell off in a few weeks with the testicles. he said it happens if you clean the area when you band, or if your bands are too old and start to loose there elasticity. i always iodine the area first, but the vet said if you dont let the antiseptic dry before applying the band, this can damage the band (i did not know that). Also, over time they loose their elasticity. I threw out all of my bands and now buy fresh ones every year.

**mygoat** · #6 04/15/12, 05:37 PM

I doubt that's what it was.

My guess would be enterotoxemia or worms before anything else. Vaccines don't always work (and then it only works against types C and D, and POSSIBLY protects against B and does NOT protect against A at all.) and worm load can kill 'silently' too. A simple digestive upset can cause them to go south REALLY fast.

**Ross** · #7 04/15/12, 05:48 PM

Sounds like a pure fluke to me. If you want some speculation maybe the transporting weakened the little guy some, and allowed a minor infection to flare up........ but really I wouldn't put much merit in that nor beat myself up about it. Do you dip the band in iodine? I've done it both ways with no notable difference. IMO a complete fluke and nothing you did wrong but it was very good of you to offer to replace the loss!

Pony · #8 04/15/12, 06:21 PM

I'm with those who say it's not the banding. Srsly, you would have noticed something was amiss before you sent him along.

Someone actually had the nerve to blame me and the genetics of my herd for the death of what was a perfectly healthy, pregnant doe when she left my farm. The vet supposedly told them to switch over from the feed program I'd had them on to a bagged product that was mostly sweet feed - and no hay.

Yeah. I tend to take whatever some vets say with a grain or two of salt...

wintrrwolf · #9 04/15/12, 06:52 PM

gee so now its starting to sound like we will have to have purchasers sign an agreement that "should they NOT follow the care/treatment/feeding plan you provided you are in no way liable for loss of goat or bills that are incurred. That furthermore should they be able to provide proof that they did follow such instructions and was still subject to loss of goat that "you" would recompense the price of the goat as they had paid unto you?"

Fun

Alice In TX/MO · #10 04/15/12, 07:24 PM

I had a horse get an infection after castration, but he was a mature stallion, and it was an open wound, not banding.

Backfourty,MI. · #11 04/15/12, 07:35 PM

I'm so sorry thai that the little guy died. I am with the others as I'm not sure it was totally from the banding. Like Dona said it could have been entero or worms too & the trip could have weakened his immune system, etc.

I've banded any boys that need it here as well & I'm sure it's possible they can get an infection so far I've not had any problems. It sounds like I do mine exactly like you do.
I band usually between 6 and 8 weeks but last year it seemed like the wether we kept I banded at 5 weeks because he was so big already & he's doing fine, never got an infection.

That was really nice of you to offer them another little buckling & I'm sure that will make her & her son feel better if they decide to get one.

We all know you take exceptional care of all your animals so try not to beat yourself up over this.

Rechellef · #12 04/15/12, 08:58 PM

I have known a very experienced breeder who lost one boy to banding, so it can happen but it is rare.

LoneStrChic23 · #13 04/15/12, 09:36 PM

I have seen a buck get a nasty, nasty infection right above the band and he died shortly after..

My Ag teacher banded a group of 15 & double checked each with us to show what to look for to make sure it was done properly.... That goat was banded correctly just like the other 14. Turned black, goat was acting "off" when they checked the band there was green puss ozzing above the band..... Ag teacher said he'd never seen that or had a problem banding before.

So perhaps it was a fluke, all the others were just fine.

I'm not a fan of banding and if I need one wethered, I have a friend who cuts for me, so my first hand expirence on banding is limited to a few cases....

Sorry the kid died, but I don't think you did anything to cause it.

Lizza · #14 04/15/12, 09:58 PM

We are decently experienced banding but we did a "bad" banding last year. We caught it early and took him into the Vet, he had to "fix" it. Basically we caught some skin with the banding, he did a little surgery and gave him antibiotics.

Also was the Doe vaccinated with CD&T before kidding? CD&T does not work under 6 weeks of age in Kids (hence why you must vaccinate the doe). You must use Tenus Antitoxin at banding, then follow up with CD&T Toxoid but the vaccine is not effective by itself under 6 weeks.

CaliannG · #15 04/15/12, 10:08 PM

I generally give a shot of tetanus antitoxin and an antibiotic at banding, just in case.

That said, it happens, but it is so very, very, very rare. Don't blame yourself, Thai. Such flukes of the Universe are not things that you can control or predict.

thaiblue12 · #16 04/15/12, 10:37 PM

I had it wrong it has been less then 2 weeks, it has been 9 days, very long work week and I am thinking it is the wrong date.

She sent me a very cute picture of them around an apple tree and even though they are 45 min West they have different things growing then I do, the apple tree is one of them.
If it was bloat/entero then the other kids can come down with it. I want to ask her if he was thrashing around, kicking out his legs and crying. Or if there was there redness, oozing or any soreness around the banded area.
I gave them a bag of food they eat, instructions, Probios and etc but if he gorged himself on something new and bloated and the vet has no idea about goats who knows if he mistook it for sepsis from banding?

She is not mad at me or blaming me for it, neither is her vet. I feel bad for her son and have plenty of boys so offering them another is not a problem especially if it was a banding incident. I do not want him to have bad feelings about owning goats. There are 3 kids and they have 3 goat kids so I guess it is his they lost.

I am no longer vaccinating pregnant does. I stopped doing that the year before last.
I never vaccinate them this early since it is not long lasting but I did it since he was getting banded and leaving I figured short term protection was better then nothing.

I own a burdizzo and I dislike it, I like the theory of it but I do not like the actual practice.

Thanks for kind words.

goatkid · #17 04/15/12, 10:47 PM

I've never lost a goat to banding, but I did have one get infected several years ago. From what I recall, we cut off the band and gave him antibiotics.

Lizza · #18 04/15/12, 11:49 PM

Things happen, it wasn't your fault because you did your best and you have done everything right, plus offered them another wether. You shouldn't feel bad.

I would be suspect of Tetanus though, with only one shot at 5 weeks, the Cd&T Toxoid (vaccine) is for long term effectiveness and has no effect on the short term, especially with only one dose at under effective age levels. I'd have them give the remaining wether's anti-toxin. You can split one bottle between them (can be split up to 3 ways but 2 should be fine, especially if their brother died from tetanus). Of course have them call the Vet to double check all that! Tentanus really doesn't happen very often but it does.

Hugs Thai, raising livestock is rough sometimes, I've decided people that do aren't totally completely sane. I've had a rough day today too with my goats, my older girl I thought was in the clear I think has fatty liver and her kid I think has entero, both should be fine but what a day!

Bearfootfarm · #19 04/16/12, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Do you dip the band in iodine?

I put as many as I need in a small jar of alcohol so they are wet when I apply them.

I had one lamb that developed a slight infection under the band, so I sprayed it with Peroxide a few times and that fixed it

I never had problems with any others

thaiblue12 · #20 04/16/12, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by morningstar

Hugs Thai, raising livestock is rough sometimes, I've decided people that do aren't totally completely sane. I've had a rough day today too with my goats, my older girl I thought was in the clear I think has fatty liver and her kid I think has entero, both should be fine but what a day!

I always thought we are not the sane ones lol

The other kids are a doeling, sister of the boy who died and an older kid 4 months old who is done with the banding process. I did email her asking about the banding site and what it looked like I also did warn about bloat just in case.

I hope your goats are ok! It has not been a good year for goats, it is a test, we pass and next year it will all be rosy and lots of doelings..... I wish! lol

No I put nothing on the bands since I was told to keep them in a cool, dry place, out of sunlight; so I keep them in my extra pantry with meds and such.