Would you balk at buying from a CL positive herd...

Lada · #1 04/03/12, 04:41 PM

I have a friend who was looking for a market goat for her kid to take for 4H. I gave her the name of another friend of mine who still had some wethers; and she bought one. But I guess the lady disclosed that she did have some CL positive does in her herd, however she practiced prevention. This was just a 4H project; the lady doesn't even have any other goats. When she told her advisor, I guess the advisor went all ziggityboo and told her to take the goat back and try to get her money back, which she did. Luckily, my friend was ok with giving her the money back.

I just hate that I put them both in this position. I didn't think to tell her that there was CL in the herd since she was just looking for a 4H project animal. I guess I don't see the big deal. Am I missing something?

The lady said her advisor told her of an upcoming auction where she could get a "clean" goat. Um, yeah. Cause auction house goats would never have been exposed to CL.

mrs.H · #2 04/03/12, 04:56 PM

I would not knowingly buy a goat from a CL positive herd.
I am not familiar with all auctions of course, but, the auction barn near me could care less about CL. I don't go there anymore. And I never bought a goat there!

Wolf Flower · #3 04/03/12, 05:05 PM

I wouldn't touch any goat from that herd with a ten foot pole, unless it was going directly to the butcher.

Lada · #4 04/03/12, 05:10 PM

I know that most of us would not, because we have goats and wouldn't risk bringing cl into our herds. But for someone who is just looking for a 4h project that's going to live with them for 3 months, go to the fair and then get on the truck(and they don't have any other goats), I don't see the problem.

Lada · #5 04/03/12, 05:15 PM

Unless I'm missing something. Does cl stay in the dirt?

JBarGFarmKeeper · #6 04/03/12, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lada

I know that most of us would not, because we have goats and wouldn't risk bringing cl into our herds. But for someone who is just looking for a 4h project that's going to live with them for 3 months, go to the fair and then get on the truck(and they don't have any other goats), I don't see the problem.

I think it is the risk of contaminating the ground, facilities, others' goats at the fair, etc. Somethings can't be undone...can't blame them. Nasty stuff.

rootsandwings · #7 04/03/12, 05:19 PM

As someone who is going to have dairy goats at the fair, sharing a ring and a barn and possibly an open grated stall divider with these goats - I see a problem!

Also, if I were raising an animal for meat, I would want to raise a quality animal - not one that might have abcesses that had to be cut around or a carcass that was condemned.

My friend's little boy bought a 4H wether from a herd that did not disclose that they had CL. the goat developed a nasty cough, wouldn't gain weight, and finally had an external abcess that burst. The goat was put down, and the boy is now out of goat projects for the rest of his 4H career because his ground is most likely thoroughly contaminated.

rootsandwings · #8 04/03/12, 05:20 PM

yes. it stays in the dirt.

JBarGFarmKeeper · #9 04/03/12, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rootsandwings

Also, if I were raising an animal for meat, I would want to raise a quality animal - not one that might have abcesses that had to be cut around or a carcass that was condemned.

If you research meat goats, CL and carcasses at all, you will find that "most" meat goat herds have CL, they don't see the issues that we "dairies" do and the CL abscesses don't effect the carcasses. They come off with the skin or they come out with the guts. It sounds disgusting but if it were a point of greater financial loss for the producer most would see it as a bigger problem. Some do vaccinate. The producers that have been around for years see it as the "responsible" thing to do.

I have heard many on here berate the Case-Bac vaccine but have also talked to goat producers (dairy and meat) that have used the vaccine successfully for years to prevent or control a problem that has been caught or in an effort to avoid one. (Some producers have spoken directly to the manufacturer about the vaccine and know that it has been quite successful in the majority of cases with goats. I wish parents-at-large did as much research into the vaccines and medications that human "kids" are given every year.)

I have not had nor do I EVER intend to have a CL positive goat but can certainly understand that sometimes "CRAP" happens and, albeit, not perfect the Case-Bac vac is an option that is available to those wishing to use it and I would never condemn someone for making an effort at responsibility.

Stepping down now....

Alice In TX/MO · #10 04/03/12, 05:43 PM

Most the folks here are dairy folks, and we would go ziggityboo, also. NO goats from CL herds on my place, and I won't even knowingly visit a CL positive herd.

RedSonja · #11 04/03/12, 05:48 PM

Would definitely balk (I love "ziggityboo", what a word!

) at it. Three months after I bought my buck, the seller discovered CL in her herd and yes, I went ziggityboo. Luckily my buck was not exposed, but it was a very stressful time here. I would not knowingly take a 4-H project with any communicable disease, because you would expose every other exhibitor to the diseases.

-Sonja

Lizza · #12 04/03/12, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lada

I know that most of us would not, because we have goats and wouldn't risk bringing cl into our herds. But for someone who is just looking for a 4h project that's going to live with them for 3 months, go to the fair and then get on the truck(and they don't have any other goats), I don't see the problem.

I am a 4H leader and my daughter helps the Vet's do check in. For one thing, they would turn that goat away on check in day (if they spot something) and that child would have no goat to sell. They turn away animals every year for a variety of reasons. Yes, parents are usually really upset but these things are told to all leaders and should be filtered down to parents and kids.

As someone else mentioned, these grounds are used by other animals and you risk infecting the breeding Boer next to this one at fair, not to mention the grounds who then may infect more sheep or goats at the next fair at that facilities. It would be completely irresponsible to bring a knowingly sick animal to any fair and certainly to a 4H fair where kids are bringing their breeding projects that they keep for usually their entire 4H careers.

Lastly, if that goat is infected with CL, someone is buying that animal to eat and you would be putting a knowingly sick animal up for auction.

Not to mention infecting your own home barns and pastures! Even if they don't have goats now maybe they will want goats or sheep next year and they would have infected their home. Why would you take the risk?

I do understand that the goat may not be infected but I wouldn't let it anywhere near my animals and I sure as heck wouldn't want my goats penned next to it! This is the exact reason we always order an extra tack pen and then put the tack pen between any other goats and the milk stand against the wall that houses our animals.

I am glad they were able to take the goat back and get their money back.

IndyGardenGal · #13 04/03/12, 06:02 PM

CL is zoonotic. Allowing CL exposed animals puts others' livestock at risk.

thaiblue12 · #14 04/03/12, 06:09 PM

She cannot practice prevention for CL it is not the same as CAE where you can pull at kid at birth and keep them from becoming positive.
It can live in the ground, on the barn wood and such for years.

There is no way I would buy or keep a goat with possible CL, I would be risking my entire herd. Nor would I show them and risk other's goats.
This is yet another reason I will not show my goats, I have no idea if their goats have any cooties they may share.
At the show's I have gone to as a visitor they all have shared a large building with Boer goats. Yes there is some separation but not enough especially when quite a few have that terminal animal point of view. I wash my shoes when I get home, and change clothes before I go near my goats.

Also that boy should not have just one goat as it would be lonely, he needs two for the animal's well being. No to auction as well. I doubt there is a tested Boer herd around him, but it does not hurt to ask if any of their goats have CL or check them for lumps.

I am not vaccinating my goat with sheep CL vaccine, having them have a bad reaction or testing positive for the rest of their lives. I am also not waiting for Colorado Serum to actually produce the vaccine they claimed was coming out anytime now, like 4 years ago! They actually and finally produce it meant for goats with no bad side effects then I will buy it.

Lada · #15 04/03/12, 06:23 PM

I don't take dairies or breeders to the fair because they are housed with the boers and I know that there's a different mentality with boers when it comes to disease. I know for a fact there are no tested herds anywhere near us. I think better education is definitely something we need to focus on with the 4h program if kids are being told to take a goat back to a breeder who discloses that she has cl, and instead encouraged to buy one from an auction.

Chances are very good that just about every boer herd in the state has cl. They just don't diclose it. And chances are almost 100% that at least one goat at the fair is going to have it, even if they "look" clean. It's why we stay away from shows with our dairies.

where I want to · #16 04/03/12, 06:32 PM

1) I took a doeling from a mom who had CL before the mom even turned around. This doeling never had any contact with her mom who was put down soon after. This doeling developed CL. The rest of my girls are negative and have remained negative over the years. Prevention doesn't really exist.
2) I have Boers and the vet just left with tubes of blood for their annual CL/CAE test. I bought my girls from someone who tests also. There are responsible Boer breeders out there.
3) CL takes awhile to show up so a market wether is likely to be gone before it shows up on the surface if they don't make this goat a pet.

So no I would never buy from a CL positive herd.

The Tin Mom · #17 04/03/12, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rootsandwings

As someone who is going to have dairy goats at the fair, sharing a ring and a barn and possibly an open grated stall divider with these goats - I see a problem!

This. Our local fair is the only time our animals leave our property. I figure there are probably goats who have been exposed there, so I stress about it before, during and after the fair. I would really freak if I knew there was a goat from a positive herd there.

I would not buy from an auction, either. You just don't know what you are getting there.

Lizza · #18 04/03/12, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lada

I don't take dairies or breeders to the fair because they are housed with the boers and I know that there's a different mentality with boers when it comes to disease. I know for a fact there are no tested herds anywhere near us. I think better education is definitely something we need to focus on with the 4h program if kids are being told to take a goat back to a breeder who discloses that she has cl, and instead encouraged to buy one from an auction.

Chances are very good that just about every boer herd in the state has cl. They just don't diclose it. And chances are almost 100% that at least one goat at the fair is going to have it, even if they "look" clean. It's why we stay away from shows with our dairies.

Lada, not every Boer in your State has CL. Yes, many Boer's do have CL but they are trying to eradicate it and people still thinking "it's only CL" only contributes to the problem.

What auction? You mean just any livestock auction? Or are they talking about a Jr. Show auction, meant for FFA/4H kids that need project animals. Usually these are from reputable breeders and not backyard Boer herds. There ARE REPUTABLE BOER BREEDERS. I have a 4H meat goat project right now, outside.

The Tin Mom · #19 04/03/12, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by morningstar

What auction? You mean just any livestock auction?

Or are they talking about a Jr. Show auction, meant for FFA/4H kids that need project animals. Usually these are from reputable breeders and not backyard Boer herds. There ARE REPUTABLE BOER BREEDERS. I have a 4H meat goat project right now, outside.

Good point. I assumed just a livestock auction. A Jr Show auction is an entirely different ball game.

Lada · #20 04/03/12, 06:44 PM

I'm going to show my ignorance here, but I thought it was only spread through contact with the pus inside the absess, or through blood to blood contact. Can it be spread through poop? I guess I'm thinking, theoretically, if the wether wasn't showing any abcesses and didn't bleed on anyone, how would he spread it?

It scary because you can't tell by looking who is carrying it.