Which buckling would you get?

sahmoffour · #1 03/15/12, 02:44 PM

I'm wondering if I can have opinions on which buckling you would buy, we're getting 2 Nigerian Dwarf bucklings (the first one that I'm trying to choose from was born Dec 2011, the 2nd will be unrelated from a kidding due around June/July this yeaer). I have an option of two bucklings from the Dec 2011 kidding. They're for our own family's milk purposes (we have 2 does coming) and I'd like to keep a closed herd and be as self-sustainable as possible which is why we're getting the bucklings.

Buckling #1: was a singleton. Mother is the daughter of Dam "A", and was a first freshener. Flashier looking. (First picture)

Buckling #2: was one of triplets. Not as flashy looking (IMO). Mother we'll call Dam "A" and is the owners favorite doe. (Buckling at the far right of 2nd photo)

Both have the same sire, so basically same bloodlines. Does it matter that buckling #2 was a singleton? Or could it possibly mean he may end up throwing smaller #'s?

And of course, they don't exist without a picture

suzyhomemaker09 · #2 03/15/12, 03:18 PM

Unfortunately the angle of your pictures make it difficult to tell much about either.
From what I can see I'd prefer the one in picture 2

sahmoffour · #3 03/15/12, 03:25 PM

Yeah the breeder sent me those pictures so that's all I have. I was wondering if the fact that buckling #1 was a singleton made any difference in how many kids he might throw in the future.

Natural Beauty Farm · #4 03/15/12, 03:35 PM

FF are known to only have singletons, especially if they are young FF.
Pictures are at wrong angles for any of us to give a good opinion.

If Dam B is the daughter of Dam A then,
Who is Dam B's sire?
The bucklings might both have the same sire, but adding in Dam B's Sire adds a new facet to your breeding program..... or not, if linebred or the same sire was used for two years... follow me?

sahmoffour · #5 03/15/12, 04:06 PM

Yeah, I follow. I don't know who either mother's sire is, only that Dam B is the daughter of Dam A and the same Buck was used for both of them. I know that Dam A is her favorite doe and she said she's kept many of her kids, so maybe I would be smarter to stick with her logic and keep Dam A's buckling? I had picked Dam B's buckling as his coloring was quite nice and the genetics are a lot alike anyways.

Alice In TX/MO · #6 03/15/12, 04:58 PM

You need pics of the udder of each dam and granddam. Pics of the kids aren't diagnostic.

**mygoat** · #7 03/15/12, 05:03 PM

If you're going to do a closed herd, might as well start with unrelated bucklings. These guys have the same genetics on the dam and sire's side, sounds like. Unless the dams/sires and the bucklings themselves are absolutely fabulous, I wouldn't linebreed on the lines like that.

Agree - I want pictures of their dam's udders/conformation and their sire's dam's udder.

libbypayne8 · #8 03/15/12, 05:19 PM

I would like to see better pictures and pictures of the parents, especially udder shots. To me color is really a secondary issue, so I wouldn't pick just based on which one is flashier. That's just me though. Good luck!

sahmoffour · #9 03/15/12, 05:29 PM

I know, better pictures would be nice. To be honest I've been searching and emailing and asking on the Canadian goat forum trying to find a good breeder but they're definitely not common in Canada yet and I'm having a heck of a time. I've emailed every nigerian goat owner I found off the Canadian Livestock Registry. (Every owner that's listed as owning more than just a couple goats anyways since I want unrelated bucklings.) This breeder has come recommended by a couple people, but she doesn't show her goats or have much info/photos on her website. The buckling photos are the only ones she sent me. She does have a facebook page with a couple photos of the dams but thats all I could find, no photo of the sire. To be honest if I could find better bucklings from a show herd I would, but I've run out of options. The LaMancha does I'm getting are awesome stock from a breeder in Manitoba (Tripe C Farms), as I really did want to start out with the best stock I can find but it's been really difficult as Nigerian Dwarfs just aren't common anywhere in Canada, and it seems like hardly anyone tests.

Mygoat: I'm not getting both of these bucklings, just choosing one and getting another unrelated buckling from another one of her kiddings due this June/July.

Here's the photos I found of the two dams, they're not good ones but the best I could find. The first is Buckling #2's dam and the second is of Buckling #1's:

Which buckling would you get? - Goats

Cannon_Farms · #10 03/15/12, 05:38 PM

I would be concerned about the first ones appearance as it looks like her udder suspension (sorry cant find the right words) is shot and thats hereditary.

Look at the dams and ask yourself it thats what you would like your whole herd to look like, then go from their.

lasergrl · #11 03/15/12, 05:43 PM

There is no way I would buy anything out of that first doe. Second one is somewhat better. They all are not very dairy at all. They have the pigmy look some get when breeding is more focused on pets.

sahmoffour · #12 03/15/12, 05:52 PM

Awww shoot. Sigh. We have a verbal agreement but no deposit paid yet. I had just told her I would take the flashier buckling if she'll hold him then I'll get a buckling out of her June/July kidding assuming she gets one. We were going to iron out details when she gets back from holidays.

This has been soo frustrating! I really had my heart set on minis, as I know I definitely want to keep a closed herd, for self-reliance purposes as well as the general fact that clean tested animals are pretty much nil around here so it would be tough for me to borrow a buck every year. But I figured Nig Dwarfs would be easier and cheaper keeping for 2 bucks that only served a purpose once a year. They're impossible to find though.

Another option is Triple C Farms said she should have a couple bucklings (unrelated to eachother as well as to the does I'm getting off her) for me, but then I've got full size Lamancha bucks to deal with which will cost more to feed, and to be honest they intimidate me a bit LOL. Some photos I've seen are pretty large, stocky animals! I grew up with cows so I guess I'm not as worried about size, but more intimidated by the stories I've read/heard of aggressive bucks so was trying to steer more towards Nig Dwarfs.

**mygoat** · #13 03/15/12, 06:02 PM

A good nigerian should look like a tiny alpine goat in proportions, just smaller in all proportions. They should not look 'cobby' or coarse like a pygmy at all. Put pygmy coloration on those does - esp the first one - and they'd be a pygmy goat. Though to be fair, they all look rather coarse in their winter coats. The main trouble is, the pictures aren't good for anything but showing color. I was able to watch an appraisal session for some nigies once, it was very informational.

The main problem I have with Nigies is that they are a dairy breed that too many people breed for pets. 98% of nigies that I'd see, you couldn't pay me to take. TINY ITTY BITTY teats. I hand milk - my hands cramp just looking at them.

I'd look for a herd that hand milks, is on DHIR, and shows (if that's what you want).

Finding them can be tough, I understand... but this isn't a race, either. Perhaps importing them would be something easily done. You could always start with doelings from somewhere decent and import a superb buckling or two. Also you can utelize AI to improve a closed herd with low risk. With a closed herd, the only way it works well, is that you really need to be happy with what you start with, otherwise you're going to have to open your herd back up every several years to improve your downsides. IMO, closing your herd unless you have very large numbers, is usually not the best route to improving your herd. The main benefit is worth it to some, however - disease prevention.

sahmoffour · #14 03/15/12, 06:15 PM

That's the problem, I just can't find a herd that hand milks, and/or shows, etc. And I've been looking for quite awhile now that I feel like I've asked/emailed and exhausted all my options. I was thinking about importing, but all I've been reading lately is how it's become much more difficult to do so I wasn't sure if that's an option anymore or not. Here's my plans: I have 2 LaMancha does (currently milking) coming from Triple C Farms (she has a website as well, would love to hear your opinions on her animals to make sure I didn't mess up there as well!). They're coming in mid-July. I'd like to start out with the best stock I can get, so I'm able to keep a closed herd. I can't find a good buck to buy, let alone searching for one to borrow every single year. I figured since my buck can't just be alone, I might as well get 2 unrelated bucks. That way if I decide to retain a doeling I'll have another buck to breed them to. So eventually I know I'll have to replace stock or bring in a new buck but I'm trying to set it up so it's not a process I'll have to go through every year as this has been really difficult and I've spent hours on my computer trying to find good animals. So I hope my plan makes sense. I'm not looking to become a big-time breeder, and I don't plan on showing my animals, I just want good healthy animals for my family's own dairy needs, pets, and my plan for the kids is to be able to sell the does to other family's wanting the same things as me, and the bucks will become dinner.

I just figure if I'm spending the money anyways, I might as well get the best animals I can find off the bat.

Would you recommend then that I maybe not bother with Nigerians and take up the LaMancha breeders offer and get a couple bucklings off her instead?

Or does anyone know anything about importing bucklings?

Alice In TX/MO · #15 03/15/12, 06:28 PM

Can you put your location in your CP (control panel)? If we know where you are, we are more likely to help you find good goats.

I was afraid of the size of "big" goats at first, too. But.... after some experience, there is part of me that wishes that Minis were NOT part of my herd. Too hard to milk, and the necessity of keeping two breeds of bucks!

Get a LaMancha herd and don't mess with minis.

JBarGFarmKeeper · #16 03/15/12, 06:32 PM

My friend here says importing bucks is the "easy" part, does are hard. Triple C has imported bucks and there are some really big Nigerian herds here in the states that do all of the above...DHIR, LA, and show. It seems to me that finding one in the Scrapies program in the key. I believe Buttin' Heads is. The man's name is Tom Rucker and I think he's in Ohio.

Dill's a-little-goat-farm in Oklahoma (Ellen Dorsey, she's an ADGA director) has a website and facebook page. She is on DHIR, LA, and shows. She MAY be in a Scrapies program. Don't skimp on the buck...also, if you are breeding for minis...ONLY GET ONE ND buck. It will be a year before you need anything else and you may want to get a higher generation mini-mancha buck to breed kids to. Go slow and get the best you can afford.

Rusty Repp at Lil tots Estate in Georgia also is on DHIR, LA and shows. (He's a judge). He has a webstie. Keep looking ask about importing. Doesn't cost a thing to ask.

JBarGFarmKeeper · #17 03/15/12, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

Can you put your location in your CP (control panel)? If we know where you are, we are more likely to help you find good goats.

I was afraid of the size of "big" goats at first, too. But.... after some experience, there is part of me that wishes that Minis were NOT part of my herd. Too hard to milk, and the necessity of keeping two breeds of bucks!

Get a LaMancha herd and don't mess with minis.

I understand what Alice is saying and to that end....you won't be afraid of a buckling you raise....

Cannon_Farms · #18 03/15/12, 06:42 PM

Rusty is a personal friend of mine and I wouldnt hesitate to purchase a goat from him. I can say he may be able to help you with transport. folks who show often will be able to help because people come from all over to go to them and show season just has started

sahmoffour · #19 03/15/12, 07:33 PM

Thank you guys so much, I can't even tell you how much I appreciate it to get advice from people who have experience! Now I'm really rethinking going with purebreds...it does make sense that I would be much more comfortable with bucks that I raise. And for breeding minis, since I'm not getting into the professional breeding side of it, it may be smarter and more responsible of me to stay away from producing a first generation of minis, since I don't really know what I'm doing and don't have plans going into it of trying to better the mini-mancha breed. My husband is also wanting to go with purebreds and the kids would be meatier LOL.

sahmoffour · #20 03/15/12, 07:36 PM

Plus if I'm getting Nigerian Dwarfs, it looks like I'll have to import and the cost per goat would be more than staying with LaMancha's, and then I'd have to pay the additional costs to transport/import, I'd bet it would be twice the cost of getting LaManchas.

I'm in Alberta, and for the LaManchas I only have to pay a bit to the breeder for driving them out as she's coming for a show in mid-July that's half an hour away from me, so it'd be easy to get 2 more bucklings from her.