Feeding pregnant does- where did I go wrong?

eclipchic · #1 03/12/12, 08:50 AM

I would love to hear your thoughts as to where my feeding program went wrong with Kissee (nubian doe died of hypocalcemia). We were giving daily to her as a dry pregnant doe: 1/2# 16% purina noble goat dairy parlor, 2# standlee alfalfa pellets, a couple handfuls of BOSS, 3 tums 1200mg (I think) and a vitamin C tablet every evening. She had free choice alfalfa blend hay (about 50% alfalfa), purina goat mineral (loose) and baking soda. She also of course got the occasional carrot treat or turnip tops...not daily though. She's 1 of my first 2 goats, I'd had sheep as a teen but this was my first venture into livestock as an adult. I was trying to follow common sense from the original advice the breeder gave me when I bought her. I knew to reduce her feed while dry, I didn't know to reduce the protein and from the comments I got its sounds like the protein had nothing to do with it.

The vet told us that we should have given her a vitamin A&D shot a month before her EDD, that pretty much all the calcium we were giving her wasn't being absorbed. I hope it's that simple. I'd hate to find ourselves in this position again if it's preventable. The vet also mentioned that her foot injury was what caused the stress that then caused the hypocalcemia. I thought he also said something about hoof mites.

I appreciate whatever you have for me in terms of advice. Right now we are just trying to gather information and figure out what we do next.

sammyd · #2 03/12/12, 09:30 AM

lay off the alfalfa.

CraterCove · #3 03/12/12, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammyd

lay off the alfalfa.

Another newling asking a question... I thought Alfalfa was a good source of Calcium?

Sherry in Iowa · #4 03/12/12, 09:42 AM

I don't feed grain to the does until AFTER they kid. Then I slowly start them out and increase it every two or so days. My does are on hay, pasture, minerals and water. They are so fat right now..that I worry they won't stick when I turn the buck in. We too feed a blended alfalfa hay.

I think it's wonderful that you are asking questions..every single one of us started out new and needing information. Never apologize or feel silly for asking. People on this board may do things a little differently from each other..but there's a lot of experience on here. Pick a plan..stick to it..find the people that are doing it the same way and ask for help if you hit a roadblock. That's the way I started..and would venture that most did.

thaiblue12 · #5 03/12/12, 09:51 AM

It is a good source and all my girls have alfalfa.

I have not heard that the calcium is not absorbed unless they get a Vitamin shot, that makes no sense.

Everyone feeds differently, for their budget, area and such. We can all tell you different feed plans.
Mine is 2 parts alfalfa, 1 part 3 way grain, grass hay(horse quality), loose cow minerals. I bolused them twice this past year with copper.

I do not increase grain the last month before kidding since I have Nigies and I do not want large babies.
I would only do a sprinkling of BOSS since it is just fat and can make them fat. Yes it makes nice and shiny coats just too much is not good.
I am not sure with all the calcium she was getting if she needed the Tums or VitC.

I cannot understand with all the extras you gave her why she would get hypocalcemia. Is your vet certain that was the cause of death?

Sherry in Iowa · #6 03/12/12, 09:54 AM

That's a great point Thaiblue.

KrisD · #7 03/12/12, 09:56 AM

No they need alfalfa free choice. Your feeding program is good and I don't see any real grain in there. BOSS is a good source of protein and fiber for the rumen. Nobel goat is Timothy based. Some does just for some reason just don't absorb enough calcium which is why in a herd can all eat the same thing and only one doe gets hypocalcimia. I think you just had a bad fluke.

Oat Bucket Farm · #8 03/12/12, 10:16 AM

They need the alfalfa for calcium.

Were your does copper bolused? A lack of copper and can inhibit the absorption of calcium. High iron in your water can inhibit the absorption of copper.

Laying off the alfalfa (or other good choice of calcium) is a good way to kill a dairy doe. They need it to grow the babies and put milk on. Without it, they will pull from their own stores and that's not what you want them to do.

Everyone has their own grain mixture and what not that works for them. Here, we use a mixture of three parts oats to one part BOSS.

When in milk, they get 1/2 to 1 cup of the grain mix (depending on the doe) and an equal amount of beet pulp, on the milk stand twice a day.

If they are young does that are still growing while trying to grow kids, I provide a small amount of grain through the whole pregnancy, and start to slowly increase it in the last month until they are getting the 1/2 to 1 cup twice a day.

They have free choice loose minerals, free choice hay and free choice alfalfa. They get copper bolused every four months. We tried every six months, but they didn't seem to do as well.

Sometimes, even with the best of everything, they still get hypocalcemia. That is why we always have a bottle of CMPK injectable on hand. We've only ever needed to use it on a doe that needed a boost after a long labor and difficult delivery. We've never had hypocalcemia or Ketosis, but we keep the meds to treat them on hand and watch for them just in case.

Hollowdweller · #9 03/12/12, 10:33 AM

It's hard to say. There are a lot of reasons for milk fever.

Too much calcium and potassium is one, and alfalfa has a lot of both, but that's not the only reason.

Go online and go the library and read everything you can on the causes of milk fever and then adjust your feed accordingly.

Heavy producing does are always more prone to milk fever, so even with good management you have a chance of getting it.

I have only had milk fever twice. Both times in the same doe. Second time killed her.

She was a heavy milker peak 18 lbs. First time was when she kept gettting crowded out of the hay feeder by another bossier animal that had been let in for the first time with her.

I believe with her level of production this just cut down on her consumption of alfalfa (she was post kidding) to the point it put her over the line. I gave her some injectible calcum and she cleared right up.

The second time was the next year. She had had triplets. The hay year before was crappy and when she freshened all I had was orchard grass. She wouldn't eat alf pellets.

I probably could have taken her to the vet and had him put her on an IV but I am really big on selecting for animals that don't incurrr a lot of vet care. It was on a Sunday also and the only place open was the emergency vet clinic an hour away.

Since that time I have always tried to lay back some good alf for feeding immediately after kidding.

Hollowdweller · #10 03/12/12, 10:36 AM

How long had your doe been fresh and how much milk was she giving?

How many kids did she have?

sammyd · #11 03/12/12, 10:47 AM

alfalfa has calcium that is true. However, the body becomes used to the calcium being provided by the feed and once lactation begins and the need for calcium is great, the body has "forgotten" how to mobilize the calcium from internal sources.
Low calcium diets are the best for dry does.
Once she has freshened you can free feed alfalfa.

http://www.ubisimail.co.za/pdf_files...ever_goats.pdf
http://www.goatworld.com/articles/nu...ritional.shtml
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/in...m/bc/80303.htm

copperpennykids · #12 03/12/12, 11:03 AM

Sorry Sammyd - This idea and feeding program has killed many a goat! Including Boer goats - they don't get hypocalcemia, but they go down like 9 pins with ketosis every year.

How long have you been raising dairy goats, what breed(s), and what is their milk production?

copperpennykids · #13 03/12/12, 11:07 AM

Regarding the OP:

Your feeding program sounds correct (I would prefer alfalfa hay to pellets, but for some areas, getting good alfalfa can be a serious challenge).

I would guess that the injury caused her to slow down on her eating, which then set her up for ketosis/hypocalcemia. If she was a high production doe or was carrying a large number of kids, she would be more inclined to have a problem. The trick is to watch for subtle signs of ketosis/hypocalcemia, especially when a doe is "off" and be prepared to supplement with MFO or CMPK oral (Valley Vet or Jeffers) mixed with gatorade. May just get them over the hump until they get past the imbalance caused by illness, injury or just the hormonal adjustment that occurs post kidding.

sammyd · #14 03/12/12, 11:15 AM

Maybe you think I would kill goats but I posted some very good links that agree with what I say.
We have raised dairy goats for over 5 years, never had a case of milk fever or ketosis.

mpete · #15 03/12/12, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oat Bucket Farm

They need the alfalfa for calcium.

Were your does copper bolused? A lack of copper and can inhibit the absorption of calcium. High iron in your water can inhibit the absorption of copper.

Laying off the alfalfa (or other good choice of calcium) is a good way to kill a dairy doe. They need it to grow the babies and put milk on. Without it, they will pull from their own stores and that's not what you want them to do.

Everyone has their own grain mixture and what not that works for them. Here, we use a mixture of three parts oats to one part BOSS.

When in milk, they get 1/2 to 1 cup of the grain mix (depending on the doe) and an equal amount of beet pulp, on the milk stand twice a day.

If they are young does that are still growing while trying to grow kids, I provide a small amount of grain through the whole pregnancy, and start to slowly increase it in the last month until they are getting the 1/2 to 1 cup twice a day.

They have free choice loose minerals, free choice hay and free choice alfalfa. They get copper bolused every four months. We tried every six months, but they didn't seem to do as well.

Sometimes, even with the best of everything, they still get hypocalcemia. That is why we always have a bottle of CMPK injectable on hand. We've only ever needed to use it on a doe that needed a boost after a long labor and difficult delivery. We've never had hypocalcemia or Ketosis, but we keep the meds to treat them on hand and watch for them just in case.

JBarGFarmKeeper · #16 03/12/12, 11:31 AM

http://fiascofarm.com/herbs/formulas.htm#pregtea

Has anyone here tried this product? We have been using it for 2 years. I buy it 5# at a time. I feed a few Tblsp. everyday the last month. They eat is like it's candy. It is a great "natural" source of vitamins and minerals. I have even purchased cut and sifted Raspberry leaf through Azure Standard Coop a pound at a time to extend it (we have a LOT of does). We don't have retained placentas or the like.

Hollowdweller · #17 03/12/12, 12:12 PM

From the Merck Manual:

Etiology:

The exact cause is unknown, but the conditions under which field outbreaks occur are fairly well defined. Low concentrations of serum calcium are found in heavily lactating animals or those with multiple fetuses. Some cases are also complicated by hypophosphatemia and hyper- or hypomagnesemia. The disease occurs at any time from 6 wk before parturition to 10 wk after. Due to calcification of fetal bones, the greatest demand for calcium for nondairy animals occurs 3-4 wk prepartum, particularly if >1 fetus is present in utero. Whenever an abrupt calcium demand occurs, the body requires 24-72 hr to activate the metabolic machinery necessary to mobilize stored calcium. High intake of calcium, phosphorus, or some cations (potassium, sodium) may decrease the production of parathyroid hormones. During decreased parathyroid function, less 1,25-dihydroxycholecalciferol is produced, resulting in lowered absorption and mobilization of calcium from the intestines and bones, respectively.

From Goat Medicine.

Quote:

In dairy cattle the avoidance during late pregnancy of feeds rich in calcium such as alfalfa hay was long considered central in preventing milk fever. More recent work in both cattle and goats has shown that adjusting the cationic/anionic balance ((Na+K)/(Cl+S) by acidifying the late pregnancy diet with added anionic salts also prevents the condition. Diatary magnesium must be adequate for calcium mobilization from bone to occurr.

Here's a good article on it:

http://www.das.psu.edu/research-exte...milk-fever.pdf

thaiblue12 · #18 03/12/12, 12:35 PM

I read the articles as well and it says nothing about them building a resistance to calcium, to cut it out and add it back later.

From the goat world one:

Following kidding, most does may have a lowered calcium level in the blood (hypocalcemia). This is partially due to the drain on available calcium by the production of colostrum. (Colostrum contains twice as much calcium as milk).

The Merck link states a few times that calcium is needed. So I am not sure where Sammyd you read that it should be cut out of their diet. They actually state that calcium is needed before kidding as colostrum takes double from the does.

Those links would not make me think I need to cut back or change my feed program.

eclipchic · #19 03/12/12, 12:55 PM

She died 10 days prior to kidding, the vet seemed pretty certain about being toxemic/hypocalcemic. I don't know how many she was carrying but her history is twins, she looked big enough for triplets IMO but I'm inexperienced and just going by pics of does carrying 3. She's not really a big producer either. She peaked 2 years ago at 11# a day.

I've heard all kinds of theories, including the one where you cut back on the high calcium foods like alfalfa. It's confusing though and doesn't make much sense. I actually have one friend that doesn't feed grain at any stage of lactation and pregnancy and doesn't have these problems so maybe she's on to something. I might sacrifice milk production but maybe if they don't die on me then it's worth it?

The CMPK we only had as oral and by the time the vet got there and filled us in on what's going on, oral wasn't going to work because she was already in shock and drooling/foaming at the mouth. We gave her the injectable but I think that could have easily killed her at the dose we were advised. 120 cc over multiple injection points.

I'm not sure if one breed or another is prone to this. Maybe I need to look at a different breed or breeder's stock, I don't know. I think it's really hitting us hard because we only had one milk doe so it's a total loss for us. Lesson learned there, have back up copies (kind of like computer data I guess....bad analogy)

eclipchic · #20 03/12/12, 12:56 PM

the tums I was actually giving her to try to prevent hypocalcemia after reading a bunch of stories of goats dying because of hypocalcemia....go figure