Is the CD/T Vx really the way to go?

Minelson · #1 03/11/12, 08:31 PM

It has come to my attention that not everybody does the CD/T toxoid at least once a year.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised since I know of the over vaccination controversy with dogs and cats. But I guess I just don't recall the subject coming up here on the goat forum. So I was surprised to hear that some opt out of this widely suggested vaccination.
Is having the anti toxin on hand good enough if a goat gets entro??
Always learning!

thoughts?

Oat Bucket Farm · #2 03/11/12, 08:46 PM

I personally think it is. Like I said on the other thread where this came up, the only goat I have ever had get entro, was one that was vaccinated for it. I personally don't like the idea of repeatedly injecting vaccines and their chemicals into the goats.

yarrow · #3 03/11/12, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oat Bucket Farm

I personally think it is. Like I said on the other thread where this came up, the only goat I have ever had get entro, was one that was vaccinated for it. I personally don't like the idea of repeatedly injecting vaccines and their chemicals into the goats.

exact same experiences here..ONLY kids to ever have entro.. were back when we vaccinated with CD&T (ALWAYS a new in date bottle!.. so nothing old or contaminated)... I do give tetanus vaccines and ALWAYS have an in-date bottle of CD Antitoxin in the fridge.. for just in case.. (not sure **WHO** decided we all needed to vaccinate the kids AND the pregnant does??? but it use to be THE way it was done.. not so much any more.. ask around you will find out that a lot of folks DON'T give CD& T (esp. folks who like ourselves rarely bring in new goats, don't show.. ect)...

susie, mo ozarks

Alice In TX/MO · #4 03/11/12, 09:07 PM

I know a few goat owners who don't vaccinate at all. The don't seem to have big health issues with their goats.

GoldenWood Farm · #5 03/12/12, 12:04 AM

I stopped doing it a few years ago. The only ones I have ever had problems with are ones I vaccinated. I did have one buck who died from it (came from herd that vaccinated) and then I lost two of his kids and one of his grandkids from entero also. I haven't had it since and that was a few years ago. I had no clue how many people didn't do it anymore. I have always kept silent because I felt I would get harassed about it.

I stopped doing it because I felt that by doing so we where stopping the natural immune system from working to correct it. As far as I am concerned entero comes from a imbalance in the stomach caused by over eating or something that upsets their stomach. I feel that by vaccinating for it we cause the goats not to be able to correct it themselves, this is why I stopped. I felt the buck I lost didn't have a strong stomach at all because of coming from a place where they vaccinated for it for years. When I lost several of his kids and a grandkid to it I figured it was line related. They where more susceptible to it and didn't have as "strong" of stomachs I feel. I feel sometimes we tend to "help" keep goats alive that shouldn't.

I had a doe I bought one time from a great breeder (loved the buckling I bought also) but they line bred so much that with their solid black does they wanted you to wait to breed them until they where at least 18 months because they where so small. She was what I refer to as a "hot house flower" because she got sick with walking pneumonia 3-4 times before she was a year old.

I love the lines she was from and still would buy from them but I just feel that sometimes with all the heavy drugs we have and all the vaccinating we do it lowers the animal's natural immunity to fight things off that they normally would in the wild. But that is just my 2 cents

. I figure to each their own, and if someone wants me to vaccinate a kid they are buying I will do so no problem. I just prefer not to in my herd.

Justine

Shygal · #6 03/12/12, 02:13 AM

So what are you suggesting, dont vaccinate for the CD, just tetanus?

Or none at all but keep the antitoxin on hand?

steff bugielski · #7 03/12/12, 05:49 AM

My goats get nothing but food, water, hay, minerals and outside. They Kid with zero trouble, they milk fantastic, 6-9lbs each morning each, and they are happy and frisky.
This has been my experience for 17 yrs.
I do give selenium-Vit E x a year

#8 03/12/12, 06:08 AM

I no longer vaccinate with anything. When I started out I followed all of the recommended protocols. BoSe is the only thing now that I inject except for the rare occasion that antibiotics have been needed.

Good quality hay, mineral and grain are basically all that I have found is needed for my herd. Livestock grade baking soda is also provided free choice to milkers that are receiving increased amounts of grain.

Regarding the question on CD/T vaccine, I never saw a difference when using it or after I stopped.

mpete · #9 03/12/12, 09:03 AM

There are 7 forms of chlostridiums. A, B, C, D, E, G & H. That is why I like the covexin 8... but no vaccine is ever definite. The most common is C & D. Chlostridiums are in the gut just like cocci. Any time the rumen slows down or stops the chlostridiums multiply and that is what causes the entero. Once you see a symptom, it's usually too late.
Here in Northern Ca about a month ago, there were several herds (yes, some that do not vaccinate as well) have a break out of entero. Lots of does and even more kids were lost.
My $400 Saanen doe that I lost last year was never vaccinated and her cause of death: entero

Chlostridiums are "natural" in this world. So why take a chance and have your goat die of it...

Sherry in Iowa · #10 03/12/12, 09:22 AM

We don't vaccinate and never have. We rarely worm..more of a case by case. That being said..with the very mild winter we have had this year..we are planning on worming all the does before the buck gets turned in with them (we breed for late summer/early fall kids). I think the one thing that is positive for this method is that the goats' bodies are running under their own steam..their immune systems have to be good and are being challenged a lot. If their bodies were depending on a shot to get them through .. their immune systems wouldn't be as good.

We had a line of goats that were susceptible to worms. We crossed with bucks that were not..the kids, for the most part, took after the buck. But, we don't bring in new stock or rarely do, and we don't show them either. That would make quite a difference.

sammyd · #11 03/12/12, 09:28 AM

We haven't vaccinated for anything in the years we've had goats. Not dieing off all over the place, matter of fact they look rather healthy.
We really only wormed once when we bought in a doe that looked a little skinny.

**mygoat** · #12 03/12/12, 09:29 AM

Just like any vaccine, it is not 100% effective. Also, as stated there are MANY different kinds, but the vaccine only prevents against the 2 most common (C and D).

It's cheap and easy so I vaccinate. If your herd is maintained properly it is less of an issue but as soon as a goat is "off", she's at an increased risk of secondary entero problems.

If you're lucky, you get the antitoxin into them at the right time. Sometimes it doesn't matter, and most of the time you'll get it in 'em too late.

Perhaps vaccination isn't needed yearly (most of the time vaccines do not wear off in a year... but the only way to know for sure would be to check blood titers) but every other year or so could probably be recommended. Of course vaccinating kids is important.

Sherry in Iowa · #13 03/12/12, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammyd

We haven't vaccinated for anything in the years we've had goats. Not dieing off all over the place, matter of fact they look rather healthy.
We really only wormed once when we bought in a doe that looked a little skinny.

Glad to hear we're not the only ones on the worming thing.

yarrow · #14 03/12/12, 10:07 AM

I think everyone has too look at their own situation...do you bring goats in & out?? do you have other livestock? .. do you have food changes? Do you dry lot? Feed a lot of concentrates? Live where it's really dry or wet & soggy.. woodlands or grasslands?

... for us.. we feed very little grain.. (we feed NO alfalfa at all).. I haven't brought in but one adult goat in the last almost 5 years.. (she was in quarantine for six months. I'll add a bottle kid -from a trusted herd, one every couple of years-but that's it for new goats in. My bucks are dry lotted, my does have 20 acres (both woods & meadows) to browse year round... The bucks & kids have local grass hay available 24/7.. the does are hayed from Nov thru May... it's as *natural* of a goat diet as I can comfortably give them. (what grain ration we do feed is ALWAYS the same.. same amount, same kind/locally milled.. I don't add new stuff, I don't take stuff out) We live on a rocky, Ozark hilltop...we don't have a major worm/parasite problem... (good drainage & no new goats bringing stuff in)... So I only worm *on schedule* 2x's per year.. if someone is a looking thin, a little pale.. I'll worm them as needed.. (I do stay on schedule with the kid's cocci prevention!!!).. Daughter just saw me typing and pointed out that we did NOT do tetanus last year.. SO .. guess NO ONE got any vaccines..everyone is still alive & kicking.. I think it's the minerals & the copper that are the important things for my herd (and yes, the BoSe in the fall & RIGHT before kidding)... sometimes less is more (but it's got the be the CORRECT less LOL)

susie, mo ozarks

KrisD · #15 03/12/12, 10:16 AM

Hmm my vet just told me to stop worming my herd. He said he only worms if he brings in someone with known parasites. I've been using Molly's herbals regularly and have been very pleased, but to be on the safe side I was still using quest 3 times a year. I'm going to drop the quest.

Hollowdweller · #16 03/12/12, 10:40 AM

When I stopped vaccinating it took about 3 years but I lost 2 kids due to entero and had 1 get tetanus.

Even not vaccinating there will continue to be a herd immunity for several years after vaccinating and sometimes you won't get it till you introduce a new animal and wind up with a slightly different strain that your herd is not immune to.

Many goatkeepers hate to give shots so the natural inclination is not to vaccinate.

Remember also if you are feeding heat treated colostrum then to be careful with the temp or you can also destroy the antibodies. Also a doe not boosted close to kidding may not transfer immunity to the kids.

Backfourty,MI. · #17 03/12/12, 04:15 PM

I will continue to vaccinate all my goats & there won't be a kid leave my property with out their CD & T shots either.

I too use to think vaccinations were over used & not needed like everyone thinks they are.
UNTIL I lost my favorite goat of all time(he was a wether) 3 years ago, I had the vet do a necropsy & the first thing he asked me was if I vaccinated & I said No. If I had vaccinated Murphy would still be here most likely! I won't loose another goat because of a shot that costs a minimal amount of cents per shot. The vet also said I could have goats another 30 years & never have the same problem but for the cost is it really worth the chance? For me it's not worth the risk.

We don't bring in a lot of goats(Last time we bought a goat was 2 years ago), they don't leave our property & no one brings their goats here for boarding or visits,etc., & before we bought this property there had never been any domesticated animals on this land.

CaliannG · #18 03/13/12, 12:07 PM

I vaccinate every other year...this is my compromise between "over-vaccination" and "death from entero". I keep anti-toxin on hand, also.

I will be vaccinating this year, if only because DH wants to add more goats to our herd, against m better judgement.

whiskeylivewire · #19 03/13/12, 03:20 PM

Ok, so as a newish goat owner I'm seeing that this is almost as debated as vaccinating human kids! lol

We have not vaccinated ours and I felt bad and was just looking into it and now I'm debating it. We haven't brought in any new goats in a year and they're all healthy and beautiful.

I do want to do the copper bolusing and give selenium though as I found out that we are in a deficient area.

Thank you for more to ponder.

Minelson · #20 03/13/12, 04:33 PM

Well not only do I do CD/T, I do Pneumonia. Only because it's cheap and easy and the weather here is so drastic (which may not have anything to do with it). I would just die if I lost one of my goats to it if an easy vacc would prevent it.
But I don't get a flu shot for myself. UGH!
My dogs are coming up due for shots and I'm in a quagmire over that too! At least I can do a titers easily on them.