Copper Question

Jyllie63 · #1 02/08/12, 03:47 PM

Well...I just had my first experience trying to bolus my goats. I had noticed that my little gal born last year as a black/white doe is now a rust colored doeling. And then just looking at the overall condition of all the other's coats I thought I better give it a try. I used a marshmallow and my normal "piggies" wanted nothing to do with the marshmallow, except my my littlest doeling. She took hers pretty willingly and also ate one that dropped out of the mouth of another. I'm now worried that she consumed too much copper. What should I look for in toxicity and when would it show up? I was able to get it into most of them. I used one copasure and divided it up into 13 pieces...making them just under a gram or at a gram each. The little gal that ate too many is about 30-35lbs and I'm guessing she may have gotten about 1.5 grams. The website I was referencing said she should get .5 to 1 gram so she didn't get an extreme amount, but still more than what was called for.

Oat Bucket Farm · #2 02/08/12, 03:54 PM

I dose at 1 gram per 22 lbs. If she were mine, I would have given her two grams. Since she is still growing, it will help cover her as she grows over the next few months.

From things that I have read, you would have had to dose her at several times the recommended amount of rods for it to overdose her. In that same vein, there really haven't been enough studies to determine where it becomes toxic. Goats need so much copper, it is hard to give them too much. I am sure there are variables among individual animals as to where the toxic line is. The rods slow release over a period of months. That may be one reason why it's hard to overdose them on them.

Jyllie63 · #3 02/08/12, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oat Bucket Farm

I dose at 1 gram per 22 lbs. If she were mine, I would have given her two grams. Since she is still growing, it will help cover her as she grows over the next few months.

From things that I have read, you would have had to dose her at several times the recommended amount of rods for it to overdose her. In that same vein, there really haven't been enough studies to determine where it becomes toxic. Goats need so much copper, it is hard to give them too much. I am sure there are variables among individual animals as to where the toxic line is. The rods slow release over a period of months. That may be one reason why it's hard to overdose them on them.

Thanks so much! I feel better about it now. It did appear that the reference I was using gave "safe" amounts to use so I kind of thought I could give a little more and still be ok. Since this is my first time bolusing, I thought I'd see how they do. Hopefully several of them are due next month and I'm hoping this gets them in better condition. Do you know when I should start to see any improvement in them? I think I'll try using bananas the next time LOL. Unless I have help there is no way I can use a bolusing gun by myself. The only thing my goats are trained to do is eat

Backfourty,MI. · #4 02/08/12, 04:47 PM

I also do 1 gm for each 22 pounds so your little one should be fine. You actually probly needed to give all of them a little more.

Mine don't like peanut butter but they Love jelly sandwich's so I put the copper rods in a jelly sandwich this last time & I think most of them ate them with out even chewing(I cut 1 sandwich into four peices) The couple that wanted to be finicky I actually put the rods mixed with some sugar & pour that in the back of their throats.

Since seeing Crystal's thread though on how to bolus I may get one of those pet pill guns & try it again. I never had luck with the bolus gun.

Oat Bucket Farm · #5 02/08/12, 04:47 PM

It takes about three weeks to really get into their systems. You should start seeing improvements then. Sometimes they show even more after the second round of bolusing. Probably because by then, their bodies aren't so deficient.

Jyllie63 · #6 02/08/12, 04:58 PM

In anyone's opinion that knows more about this than I do...since I probably under dosed them, should I still wait awhile before giving more? I got one of my bucks to take the marshmallow, but the other one wanted nothing to do with it. I think I could probably just put them in their feed and they would never know. They attack it like there's no tomorrow. They normally just get hay, so the feed would be a treat they would enjoy!

Jyllie63 · #7 02/08/12, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Backfourty,MI.

I also do 1 gm for each 22 pounds so your little one should be fine. You actually probly needed to give all of them a little more.

Mine don't like peanut butter but they Love jelly sandwich's so I put the copper rods in a jelly sandwich this last time & I think most of them ate them with out even chewing(I cut 1 sandwich into four peices) The couple that wanted to be finicky I actually put the rods mixed with some sugar & pour that in the back of their throats.

Since seeing Crystal's thread though on how to bolus I may get one of those pet pill guns & try it again. I never had luck with the bolus gun.

I may have to try this. The peanut butter trick seems so messy!

Oat Bucket Farm · #8 02/08/12, 05:06 PM

If you know how much you under dosed them, then yes, you can give them more.

Jyllie63 · #9 02/08/12, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oat Bucket Farm

If you know how much you under dosed them, then yes, you can give them more.

I'd say at least by 2 grams based on your method of 1gram/22lbs. I might try more this weekend. Now that I know they aren't crazy about marshmallows I need to get creative

praieri winds · #10 02/08/12, 05:46 PM

we offer our goats free choice loose goat minerals and put a little copper sulfate in the water to keep it clear so they get plenty of copper this way

Backfourty,MI. · #11 02/08/12, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jyllie63

I may have to try this. The peanut butter trick seems so messy!

Make them a little jelly sandwich first with no copper in them & see if they like it first. Then that night or next day if they liked them add the copper rods to it.

I find that if I give that to them before they eat that they scarf them down before they know what's in them.

Mine like my blueberry or grape jam the best.

Tallabred · #12 02/08/12, 05:51 PM

My herd did not like the marshmellows at all but they love prunes. I slice open the edge of the prune and put the copper in. As long as I am holding the next one they will just swallow it real quick and beg for it.

Donna1982 · #13 02/08/12, 07:17 PM

I just did my goats. I will say my goats will eat almost anything that is human food. But for some reason they will not if it has copper in it. I dont know if they can smell it or what the deal is. Like Big Red he loves marsh mellows. I gave him one with out copper ate it down... almost took my finger with him. Then the copper one nope spit it across the yard. So I said fine got my pill gun out down when the copper pill and in went a marsh mellow followed by a some food in my hand. That went great oh yeah not forget the high pitched num num song. hehehe. I am good for the next 6 months and i am hoping this time I see more of an improvement last time didn't see much

dosthouhavemilk · #14 02/08/12, 08:00 PM

Why don't you think you can bolus them yourself?
We dose at 1 gram/22 pounds. We are also way behind on it. I will be doing some myself here sometime. You are welcome to come and learn how to use a balling gun for bolusing. I do it by myself. Though, it is a bit of a drive if I recall correctly.

LoneStrChic23 · #15 02/08/12, 08:10 PM

Not saying this is what everyone should do, but with one of my does who was severely deficient, I bolused at the common dose of 1gram per 22lbs (round up to the nearest pound) & then I gave another 1/2 dose at 6 weeks after the first round. Really pulled her up nicely.

With the copper oxide rods being slow release, you really gotta get crazy with it to OD them, so I wouldn't worry

I can't do the baling gun, I'm baling gun challenged, but I love the pill gun from my blog post. I didn't do this at the time of the blog, but I now have my pill gun wrapped in duct tape to protect it from teeth..... One doe scratched it pretty bad with her teeth, so now it's better protected

CaliannG · #16 02/08/12, 11:59 PM

You would have to try REALLY hard to OD a goat on copper rods. Goats can consume huge amounts of copper oxide (which is what the rods are) without any ill effects.

They CAN OD on copper amino acid complex.... but so far, I don't know of anywhere that sells that stuff unadulterated to the public.

I dose a 1/22lbs also, but if a goat looks really deficient, I double the dose and then dose again in 4 weeks.

Mine will eat any sort of treat I give them provided there isn't something I REALLY want them to consume within it...which includes the copper rods, or worming paste, or calcium gel...or really anything I REALLY WANT in their guts. If the treat is dosed with anything, they will spit it out. I have had them spit out treats with gels in them, only to come to me and lick the smeared gel stuff *off of my fingers*.

Goats.

praieri winds , sulfates inhibit the uptake of copper in goat systems, so the copper sulfate compounds are really not any better than no copper at all. Sulfate binds to copper and makes it so the goats cannot utilize it. However, I have found that a piece of copper pipe in their water trough works really well, and they CAN metabolize copper oxide in water.

Jyllie63 · #17 02/09/12, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaliannG

You would have to try REALLY hard to OD a goat on copper rods. Goats can consume huge amounts of copper oxide (which is what the rods are) without any ill effects.

They CAN OD on copper amino acid complex.... but so far, I don't know of anywhere that sells that stuff unadulterated to the public.

I dose a 1/22lbs also, but if a goat looks really deficient, I double the dose and then dose again in 4 weeks.

Mine will eat any sort of treat I give them provided there isn't something I REALLY want them to consume within it...which includes the copper rods, or worming paste, or calcium gel...or really anything I REALLY WANT in their guts. If the treat is dosed with anything, they will spit it out. I have had them spit out treats with gels in them, only to come to me and lick the smeared gel stuff *off of my fingers*.

Goats.

praieri winds , sulfates inhibit the uptake of copper in goat systems, so the copper sulfate compounds are really not any better than no copper at all. Sulfate binds to copper and makes it so the goats cannot utilize it. However, I have found that a piece of copper pipe in their water trough works really well, and they CAN metabolize copper oxide in water.

I like this copper pipe idea! Once I get them moved to their "summer" home I may try this. Right now they share a water bucket with our horse and I'm not sure about horses and copper so I better not try it.

Jyllie63 · #18 02/09/12, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dosthouhavemilk

Why don't you think you can bolus them yourself?
We dose at 1 gram/22 pounds. We are also way behind on it. I will be doing some myself here sometime. You are welcome to come and learn how to use a balling gun for bolusing. I do it by myself. Though, it is a bit of a drive if I recall correctly.

My goats are not very well behaved

.

Alice In TX/MO · #19 02/09/12, 06:14 AM

LOTS of info about copper at this link. Many articles:

http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/index.php?board=6.0

dosthouhavemilk · #20 02/09/12, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jyllie63

My goats are not very well behaved

.

And mine are?! lol
Silver Streak earned her name. Silver blur may have been more appropriate though since she has "settled" to kid she has calmed down a bit.
Things have gotten worse taming wise since you were here to pick up Shiloh, oh those many years ago.

Catching them is the hardest part here. Then I back them into a corner (sometimes) and straddle them. Then place the bolus at the back of their tongue with the balling gun. You can tether the harder to hold goats and straddle them.
I think the bolus size and pill gun/balling gun makes a huge difference. My single boluses fit perfectly into the balling guns I use. So one bolus, one shot, with no paste or peanut butter, etc.