Removing the udder?

[Creamers]

Okay,

I HOPE it doesn't come to this, but
I have a doe I've fought mastitis with since
. . . June.

It has stayed sub-clinical for the most part -
no fever, doe looked/acted normal, milk looked normal,
CMT test was slightly off and a few times - seriously positive -
went through all treatments, both RX and non, you could think of.

One side of it cleared totally up, the other half still have some
smaller lumps.

A long time dairy owner and breeder (one that really knows her stuff)
told me to dry her up - this was late October. She gave me a list of to dos, but now the one side - though she hasn't been milked in a few months has flared up again today - it is hot, the doe is acting moderately off and
I've just given Banamine, Thiamine (never hurts, eh?) and Biomycin.

I've called the vet to see what we can try, as the Naxcell did nothing before -
the Pirsue did nothing. . .Biomycin was what it responded do best, but even then, not enough.

I also got an opinion on having it removed.

I love this goat - lol - I mean, I do, and she is our nicest doe all around . . .

Questions. . . if I have it removed. . .could she ever be bred again?
What happens in whatever connected to the mammary system that is no longer there when she can't come into milk? I'd like to get another kidding out of her an retire her here, if possible.

I didn't breed her back this year because of the mastitis.

[CaliannG]

If she were my doe and I really wanted to keep her and breed her, I'd throw every antibiotic known to man at her in HUGE quantities until the mastitis cleared up, and then I would keep her completely dry and un-bred for a full year, and re-breed the following year.

I've done this with a couple of does that had stubborn sub-clinical, and also with does that had teat and/or udder malformations. Letting them stay dry for a year did a LOT of repair on udder, teats, and even sub-clinical mastitis has a hard time hanging on for a full year.

[Alice In TX/MO]

Antibiotics, herbs, massage, compresses, etc. ALL OF IT for weeks.

Ditto on Caliann's year off recommendation, too.

Have you had the milk cultured to know for SURE what bacteria is the problem and which antibiotics it is susceptible to?

[firefly81]

We bought a doe 7 years ago, her sister they through in for free. She was a big 7buck year old alpine who had gotten mastis the year before and hadnt gotten treatment. Her udder was huge, almost drug the ground it was awfull to see. We took her to the vet to see his options, and he said he could take it off. So we had him do it, she did wonderful. We let her have a year off after the surgery, and after that she got breed carried kids every year after that till this fall (ussuall old age finally caught up with her) and she never haad any problems.

[mygoat]

Removing the mammary won't affect her ability to be pregnant... but obviously they won't be able to feed their own kids. You may still let her 'raise' the kids, but you'd have to do all the feeding for her.

[red hott farmer]

yes have the milk tested. and they generally can tell you what to fight it with. if it is Gram + or what?

[mygoat]

I agree with a susceptibility test on the milk. It's better than just guessing.

[steff bugielski]

Is there any reason to remove the udder? Why not just leave it alone. If it is infected chances are it will stop functioning and just sit there.

[Hollowdweller]

It is possible for a doe to have a mastectomy.

[Patrick]

If she were my doe and I really wanted to keep her and breed her, I'd throw every antibiotic known to man at her in HUGE quantities until the mastitis cleared up

Antibiotic resistance is a very real problem, and it's caused by using these types of methods. The day is coming that no antibiotics will be available without a prescription because of it. The FDA is already moving in that direction, and it's specifically abuses by the livestock insdustry which they have implicated in being the main reason for tighter controls.
I'm surprised that your veterinarian hasn't recommended a culture and sensitivity as others have touched on, to see exactly what you're dealing with, and what will kill it. Either way, resistance and vigor is a heritable trait. Why would you want to reproduce a doe that doesn't have it? Even if you dry her off after kidding again, she's still likely going to have to go through another bout of mastitis. I would cull her if she were mine. If you're emotionally attached, I'd recommend just keeping her and not breeding her again.

[Hollowdweller]

Originally Posted by Patrick

Either way, resistance and vigor is a heritable trait. Why would you want to reproduce a doe that doesn't have it? Even if you dry her off after kidding again, she's still likely going to have to go through another bout of mastitis. I would cull her if she were mine. If you're emotionally attached, I'd recommend just keeping her and not breeding her again.

That is a consideration. If the doe has offspring that do not have mastitis and are superior animals the mastectomy might be worth the cost.

However I'm aware of a famous doe who had a mastectomy and after studying the pedigrees and reading the sales lists of people who have relatives I've come to the conclusion that more than a coincidental number of her offspring seem to also have had fairly serious mastitis.

[mygoat]

The reason behind removing the udder is so that the pain, inflamation, and possible spread of the infection is stopped. The udder may be damaged and never work again, but the infection won't just 'go away' on it's own if it's this bad, most likely. Some causes of mastitis can spread into the rest of the body, as well. Gangrenous mastitis is pretty gnarly and is usually the result of untreatable/untreated mastitis.

Scroll down to see grangrenous mastitis:

http://thegoatspot.net/phpbb/viewtop...=4473&start=15

[mygoat]

I have also heard that some mastitis can be heritable, or at least a propensity for it. I'm sure there are simply health propensities for disease - and in the case of mastitis, also conformational reasons. An udder that is not carried well is more likely to get mastitis, for example. Simply having BIG orificies (there is a happy medium with orifice sizes - you want them big for a fast milk out but not leaky!) can cause higher incidence of Mastitis.

I would breed her to the best bucks I could for a couple years after the mastectomy, and try to keep her best daughters for your own herd. I'd then cull her (she can't produce milk anymore anyways, and in theory if you're breeding well her daughters should be better than her anyway). I'd inform any buyers of her mastectomy surgery and why it was done...

Also, the CMT test ALWAYS gels up to some amount with goat's milk. It counts SCC, and goat milk is much higher in SCC than cow's milk naturally.

I'd send out a milk sample to a testing lab asap, ask them to do susceptibility.

[Hollowdweller]

Originally Posted by mygoat

I have also heard that some mastitis can be heritable, or at least a propensity for it. I'm sure there are simply health propensities for disease - and in the case of mastitis, also conformational reasons. An udder that is not carried well is more likely to get mastitis, for example. Simply having BIG orificies (there is a happy medium with orifice sizes - you want them big for a fast milk out but not leaky!) can cause higher incidence of Mastitis.

I would breed her to the best bucks I could for a couple years after the mastectomy, and try to keep her best daughters for your own herd. I'd then cull her (she can't produce milk anymore anyways, and in theory if you're breeding well her daughters should be better than her anyway). I'd inform any buyers of her mastectomy surgery and why it was done...

Also, the CMT test ALWAYS gels up to some amount with goat's milk. It counts SCC, and goat milk is much higher in SCC than cow's milk naturally.

I'd send out a milk sample to a testing lab asap, ask them to do susceptibility.

Good advice.

On thing on orifices. I think very tight orifices often contribute to mastitis as well because it is often difficult to totally milk them out.

Also on the SCC kids sucking will often cause the SCC to go up, because the orifices stay open all day where if you are just milking they close somewhat between milkings.

When I milk I try to feed hay immediatly after so the does remain standing and the orifices close before they lay down in the bedding.

If there is a proven buck in the area or one with data on the immediate ancestors you can get on ADGA Genetics and if the bucks offspring or relatives have low SCC then I'd use that buck!

[susanne]

always, always, did i say always???? have the milk cultured before treating with antibiotic. some bacteria needs to be treated systemically ( giving injections) simultaniously with infusions. before we treat any mastitis, the milk needs to be cultured. pirsue is one of the best treatments but needs to be given at least ten days strait. if treatment stops too early all we did was creat resitent bacteria.
so, what kind of bacteria did the milk test for?????
and yes, mastitis can be transmitted through nursing. another reason for pasteurizing milk
mastectomy is very expensive and if not top notch genetics not worth it. but this is just my opinion. spent time and money on the animals that are healthy and productive.

[Creamers]

When it first turned up, I froze a milk sample, as LSU directed, but when I called them, the man said many samples coming as far as mine would even with ice were arriving warm because of the crazy heat, and he said they just throw those out. I also made the mistake of putting it in a serum tube, and they weren't sure that wouldn't interfere, but I didn't mail it because it was $80 overnight fed-ex and the man said there wasn't a huge chance of it making it night somewhat warm.

I called every place I could think of locally and had no luck.

My vet recommended a culture, but he also said since they don't deal with dairy, he had no ideas as to where.

I even called the local medical school to see if they might do it as a learning thing - they would not.

Fast foward to through the summer/fall, it seems to be done except a few lumps that were getting smaller, and on dairy goat info, I'd asked, and the consensus was the slight gel I was getting was probably just the reaction many goats get on the CMT test, and they said the lumps can take a very long time to go away, so I assumed we'd probably beat it with the biomycin (we did pirsue (a whole box), tomorrow, today, naxxcel and pen g by the time it was all said and done).

It was only when we stopped milking her to dry her off, it seems to reflaire, but a local fellow goat breeder (kickadeehill.com) said infuse at the last milking, so when this flared up, I couldn't test the contents of the udder because of that infusion. . .

There is no milk in the udder now - there is fluid I could send off if I wait 7 days and give nothing. . . .which I'm trying to do now and the weather will allow, with ice, the sample to safely make it.
I still have the frozen sample from the summer, but the vet said it wouldn't be culture-able now after being frozen so long.

I understand what everyone is saying in regards to saving an animal with this issue, and if there was no attachment, I wouldn't be as apt to try, but she is a very nice doe (everyone has always remarked on how very nice she is; Vicki M., back when she was a doeling a few years back remarked how very nice was was each time I'd post photos on the site), and her full sister has no indications of mastitis, neither did the does behind her like this or the buck's line, so I don't think this is a genetic weakness, but I am not sure, of course.

She seemed back to normal today - the udder was still hot, but she was acting normal - - -
I will put her down when it seems she is suffering, no doubt about it. My vet isn't willing to remove the udder. He has never done it and it afraid it wouldn't go well.

[southerngurl]

Fresh garlic, a whole bulb, chopped up, mix a little black strap molasses and ACV with it Put this on her feed twice a day at least. Do this until the mastitis is totally gone and continue for another week. You can chop it up ahead of time and refrigerate. No need to peel the cloves, just chop by hand or food chop after taking the papery part of the very outside of the whole bulb.

[Creamers]

will try it for sure - I've certainly about exhausted everything else.

[Hollowdweller]

If she freshens again try milking 3x a day with more frequent Bo Se. Also maybe try milking her thru although if it's chronic it may not help.

[Creamers]

She is worse today - we'll see. . . if she doesn't improve, I will put her down, but I hate to