new kidding situation ...

motdaugrnds · #1 02/03/12, 11:53 PM

This doe was purchased about 3 yrs ago. She has kidded each year without too much difficulty. Last year, however, she had a hard delivery with 3 kids (one dead in the sack). She then layed on one smothering it and the other I took away from her. (This 3rd kid I raised on this dam's milk and let them bond while keeping the kid safe until it was strong enough to get out of the way.) This doe and last year's kid are very close!

Now this year this same doe kidded (no warning, no bag getting hard, no discharge, no noise) with four (4) kids. I happened to be passing the barn when I heard a slight noise that told me something was occurring. I found 3 kids on the ground with dirt thrown over all 3 of them. Two were still warm but dead and I could not revive them. The 3rd had dirt in its mouth; but I was able to clean it and it is doing fine now...in the house like I did the other one last year. The 4th kid did not come out until about 35 minutes after the first 3. It was still in the bag and had not completely developed.

That was 3 days ago. This morning I noticed this dam had fresh blood being discharged from her vagina and she was looking "off". Still all these 3 days she has called for her baby, bonded with it and let it nurse "at" her udder, though there isn't any milk in it. Also, she is careful where she puts her feet when the kid is under her. Still, when the kid lays down, the dam paws the ground causing debrie to fly over the kid. That is when I take the kid back into the house.) This afternoon I gave the dam some CMPK. Hopefully she will feel better tomorrow.

Today, when I put the kid outdoors with this dam, she stayed right with her new born (very gentle and nurturing with it) for over an hour until the kid decided it was going to find a place to sleep and walked "away" from its mother to find a place...under our front ramp where no other goat can get to.

At this time the dam is in the barn and the kid is in my house. Both sound asleep. (I'm feeding the kid the collostrum from the other doe who had kidded earlier on the same day; so this kid is getting plenty of good milk.)

I have never had a kidding situation like this where the dam does "not" make milk. Has anyone had any experience with such a thing; and if so, what causes it?

Alice In TX/MO · #2 02/04/12, 03:11 AM

Just throwing things out here.....

Have you tested for CAE?

What is your feeding program?

Where is she in the pecking order?

motdaugrnds · #3 02/04/12, 08:13 AM

Thanks Alice.
She is CAE free.
Feeding program was "slowly" changed after all kidding last year. I took away sweet feed and added Purina Healthy Edge instead. I've been giving them the following for nearly a year now, which has kept good weight on them.

.....Hoegger's "loose" minerals (free choice)
.....Baking Soda (free choice)
.....Fresh well water (low iron content) daily into three 5-gal buckets hung on walls (1 is heated during winter months)
.....Grazing (mixture of New Zealand grass and the local fescue invading pastures)..ON ALL GOOD DAYS

Morning pans (one each) of grain: (all mixed together)
1/2 cup Healthy Edge
1/2 cup whole Oats
1/2 cracked corn (only during cold weather)
1/4 cup BOSS
1 full cup (8 oz) long-grained alfalfa pellets
1 full cup shreaded beet pulp

During bad days when the herd cannot go out to browse (heavy rains and/or sleet/ice/snow on ground) they get their 3 feeder bins filled with baled hay (baled "orchard grass" and/or home-harvested (mixture of New Zealand grass and local fescue cut in milk stage).

This doe is at the top of the pecking order; however, she is not mean and at times shares this top position with one of the other does, the one who has "not" as yet kidded. (I only have 4 does and one buck. The last in pecking order is the kid I saved last year and 3rd in pecking order is a small doe who kids easily each year and has nursed 3 kids at a time into real good health without it mishaping her udder .. nor were there any fights. She is an excellent dam! The one buck has not been permitted to be with any of the does since they have shown signs of being pregnant, which has been at least 4 months now.)

This morning, this doe I'm concerned about (name is Bliss) is eating her pan of grain well, is "not" AS YET yelling for her kid; and her kid is asleep in a box in my house, though she appears to be waking up now. After all have consumed their grain, I'm going to take this kid out and see if I can get the doe who kidded this year with only one (the doe who was so good last year with 3 and the year before with 2) to let this kid nurse. If not, I will simply take some of her milk and use it to bottle feed this kid. Later today after it warms up a bit, I will let this kid out again to bond and play around with her dam's udder. (The bonding has been very good.)

Alice In TX/MO · #4 02/04/12, 09:23 AM

Still no milk, eh. Very strange. Your feeding plan is much like mine, and nothing stands out as potentially harmful.

The only other thought would be that she had subclinical mastitis at some point, but I think she'd still bag up somewhat.

I'm wondering if she's just not making the right hormones at the right time for some reason.

Goats are sometimes frustrating.

Waiting Falcon · #5 02/04/12, 09:48 AM

If you have fescue it could cause her to have no milk. It could also cause selenium deficiency. Some animals can eat fescue and show no ill results, others will be hit hard by it in various ways. Lack of selenium can cause animals to act like they are retarded- have seen this in calves more frequently. But se deficiency can cause hard birthing, weak kids, retained placenta, etc.

Alice In TX/MO · #6 02/04/12, 09:52 AM

Found this about Fescue and goats. Learn something new every day!!
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/fescue.html

motdaugrnds · #7 02/04/12, 10:51 AM

Thanks for that url, Alice.

Yes, I have known for years our local Fescue 31 has endophytes; however, I have striven to cut it "before" it heads out. The last couple of years I have not been able to cut all of it in such a timely fashion; thus, now, I am beginning to think this fescue is the culprit that has caused my does to have kidding difficulties.

The New Zealand grasses I planted years ago is still growing; however, through the years it has been invaded heavily with this local fescue. This means it would behoove me to kill off all the pasture grasses and re-seed it with the endophyte-free grasses. I have the best pasture in the back as it has less fescue in it; so I will feed it and, since it is only about 1-1/2 acre in size, will make sure I get it cut "before" it heads out. The front two pastures are about the same size and are not surrounded by forestry as the back pasture is, which means they are full of the wind-blown seeds of local fescue our county seeds the sides of the roads with and the neighbor seeds his 4 acres with.

I've never cleaned off this much acreage before (except when we first arrived and the entire acreage was dozed); so I'm not sure how to go about this in a way I can afford. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I have a 4-gal back pack that I use for "Round-up" spraying when I need to..mostly around buildings and patches of rocks to help prevent unwanted varmints from choosing those area to house themselves in. It would be really hard to walk all over this much acreage spraying as I go; but it is doable if I have to. Other than this, I'm not sure how to rennovate these pastures.

Alice In TX/MO · #8 02/04/12, 10:55 AM

Talk to the local University Ag Extension office and the Conservation Department. Ag Ext should be able to tell you *how* and it's just possible the Conservation folks may have money to help you get it done.

Sounds like that could be the problem, rather than the doe herself.

prairiedog · #9 02/04/12, 11:21 AM

First thing I though of was the fescue also

motdaugrnds · #10 02/04/12, 07:40 PM

Will do. Thanks.

motdaugrnds · #11 02/05/12, 06:34 AM

Update ...

Last night this kid spent the entire time with her dam in the barn. I had kept the light on out there and checked them often. Each time I found the new born had found a place either up under a feeder bin or in a corner. It's dam was laying closely to it. All looked well!

The dam is looking better too. She has stopped bleeding and has been chewing cud while laying next to her baby.