CAE milk

[Ranger]

My neighbor has started selling milk to a woman and her daughter to feed their two new doelings. The other day the woman called her to ask about CAE testing on her does. She was very upset because the woman that she has been buying milk for the babies from just "remembered" to let her know that the milk that she has been selling to feed them is from a CAE positave doe! The woman has known the whole time what the milk was going for, and that her does are all CAE.

The owner of the doelings is just devestated. Both she and her daughter are totally in love with the babies, ND's, and can't bear the thought of putting them down. I suggested that they wait until they are 6 months old and test to be sure of their status. All the while hoping that, somehow, they managed to dodge the bullet, and aren't infected.

Anyway, I just can't believe that someone could be so uncaring as to do this.

[mygoat]

Unfortunately, there are some people who find out and can't be bothered to care because it would take effort and money to eliminate/manage the disease properly. They convince themselves it's 'no big deal' and go on with their lives. This mindset often causes others grief as well.

As for the people with the doelings - depends on their goals. Do they REALLY want to maintain two separate herds? CAE is extremely easily managed, but IMO they should STILL be isolated from negative animals (My cae positive doe that I used to have picked it up as a 2 year old - negative from breeder's farm, then positive at 2nd owners, then I tested after I bought her and found out she was positive - previous owner said cae is "no big deal" of course). You have to catch ALL kiddings, and be VERY careful about milk from the positives. To me, it was NOT worth it.

If they are JUST pets, likely it is no big deal, as MOST animals are mostly asymptomatic for most if not all of their lives. If they're seriously considering raising ND's, they need to SERIOUSLY consider culling those does or otherwise managing the disease properly. It sucks to think about butchering but when you raise any livestock, IMO, butchering is something that realistically MUST be faced sometimes. Just sucks when you have to face it when you really DON'T want to.

[prairiedog]

Definitely wait and test most CAE is passed through the colostrum so if she did not use it from them she has a better chance of them being OK.

[mygoat]

CAE is just as easily transmitted through milk as it is colostrum.

And yes, waiting till at LEAST 6 months (some places reccomend a little older than that, even), otherwise if they were exposed even at the farm they were born at they have a chance of showing a response on the test EVEN IF they are not TRUELY positive.

I'd send blood to WADDL or Biotracking.

[Alice In TX/MO]

Last winter, we went to look at some Saanen does for sale near here. They were on a large Whitetail deer ranch. The goats were used to produce milk for the fawns, which were all bottle raised.

The does looked poor, but I knew the *original* owners of the herd, and I thought they would be safe. A friend bought a Saanen doe with two kids. The manager of the ranch assured us of their health and testing.

Luckily, my friend kept them quarantined, and we sent blood in. CAE +

It took calling the owner of the ranch, who lived elsewhere, and raising bloody heck to get my friend's money back and the goats returned.

The manager was also selling milk to the public.

The manager had mentioned the veterinarian they use, and I contacted him, too. Found out eventually that the herd had also had Johnes disease a few years ago.

Pathetic management and unscrupulous individuals running the ranch.

There's a bell curve in anything, and folks like that are at the bottom.

[mpete]

It's NOT a death sentence if they are positive. When they have kids you have to pull them. Keep the positive away from the negative. It's spread by direct contact with blood or by drinking the milk.

[Neecie]

What a shame.

When I've had to purchase milk to feed kids, I buy Vit D whole cow milk from the store. It's cheaper than buying goat milk and I don't have to pasturize 'unknown' CAE status milk.

[chamoisee]

I have a solution: sell the doelings right away, to the lady who infected them with CAE+ milk. Obviously she doesn't care about CAE.

Anyway, the easiest course of action over the long run is to get rid of those doelings ASAP. Yes it is heartbreaking, but it is not going to get easier with time. They should bite the bullet, sell them, cry their hearts out, and start over with new does from a very reputable breeder, hopefully ones that have been weaned. I lost a number of very nice animals due to disreputable people as well...really valuable animals. It is heartbreaking.

[Alice In TX/MO]

Chamoisee, that's the voice of reason and experience. Any other option is more work and stress.

[idigbeets]

I'd be testing the does in a few months, also I'd consider demanding money back from the lady who sold the milk... if really serious demand $ for replacing the doe. Normally I'd consider playing nice if it was an honest mistake but it wasn't. Put the screws to her.

[mygoat]

I dont' know if I condone the sale of CAE positives. You're still helping to propogate the disease, IMO, and I think it's rather irresponsible. Unless they're selling for meat.

I mean, say you sell to a pet home. Most pet homes love their goats but don't know much about them. The fact they have CAE isn't 'important' so they may forget about it esp. if they are asymptomatic. 2 years later (as is VERY common) family has financial trouble/is moving/doesn't spend time with goats anymore and sells them. Someone buys them up for breeding with no idea of their CAE status...

Or, what if the pet owners that buy are the type that cannot bear to put down their beloved pets - even when their knees swell and they have to crawl around? After all, they don't LOOK in pain (because they're prey animals!) and still get around just fine... >

Say you sell them to a breeding home, full disclosure. If the new owner 'doesn't care' about CAE, and she dam raises or doesn't heat treat/pasteurize, you're not doing anybody any favors. I personally had to butcher my beloved CAE positive dairy goats because the breeder I got one of them from didn't think it was a 'big deal'. I was 18 at the time, and I wouldn't want other kids to have to string up their own beloved animals in the tree in the backyard and butcher them out. That is truely one of my worst memories and I did both of them in the same day, bawling my eyes out. It's that memory that keeps me disease free - I don't want some poor 4-H kid having to do the same thing.

For some reason, people look upon butchering/putting down animals as the 'worst option'. In some cases, it is the best option for you, your herd, and the animals involved. Just IMO.

[Alice In TX/MO]

Good post.

[chamoisee]

Mygoat, in general I agree with you, but the lady whose milk infected these doelings already has CAE...so selling them to her shouldn't cause any more disease than already exists.

At one time I used to fantasize about having enough money to go around and buy out all the CAE+ animals in the county and sell them off as meat (killed on site), just to try to get rid of the disease. I guess it would come back in from the next county anyway though.... I hate CAE.

[JustRSize]

Another thing to remember is that you might test the goats at 6 months or whatever age and they test negative. That doesn't mean that they are REALLY negative - they could test a year or two down the road and be positive. Some take quite some time before they sero-convert, testing negative until that time. And believe me, that is heart breaking.

~Carla
JustRSize Acres
SW Oregon

[HappyFarmer]

I'd also re-test & if positive I'd cull them.

If I'm going to take the time to test, I will follow up on the results - it's why I tested in the first place because I want clean animals.

I'd do it now while you only have the 2 & find another, clean proven herd to buy from. I hope you didn't pay too much for those girls.

HF

[Ranger]

I have no idea of what she paid. They were supposed to be the start of a herd for her daughter. I told them to test at six months, and, no matter what the results, again at one year. I think they're thinking of keeping them as pets only if the tests are positive, and buying clean goats to breed.

[mygoat]

Originally Posted by chamoisee

Mygoat, in general I agree with you, but the lady whose milk infected these doelings already has CAE...so selling them to her shouldn't cause any more disease than already exists.

Except she'd have more positive does to kid out - thus producing more potentially positive kids and more positive milk she's apparently willing to sell to others.

[chamoisee]

Originally Posted by Ranger

I have no idea of what she paid. They were supposed to be the start of a herd for her daughter. I told them to test at six months, and, no matter what the results, again at one year. I think they're thinking of keeping them as pets only if the tests are positive, and buying clean goats to breed.

Does she know that the virus can also be spread through blood (such as butting heads and drawing blood or losing a scur) and via sharing water buckets, feed troughs, etc? The only sure fire way is to completely separate the + and - goats and use separate equipment and housing for them. This is why, for me, it is just easier (although heartbreaking) to cull and start over clean.

[chamoisee]

Originally Posted by mygoat

Except she'd have more positive does to kid out - thus producing more potentially positive kids and more positive milk she's apparently willing to sell to others.

True. But it only takes one positive doe to contaminate a hundred gallons of otherwise clean milk.

[mygoat]

Originally Posted by chamoisee

True. But it only takes one positive doe to contaminate a hundred gallons of otherwise clean milk.

Yeah, but we're not talking contaminated bulk tanks with this lady. We're simply talking numbers and volume of production - more positive does simply means more positive kids to sell every year, and more positive milk for her to sell to potential buyers. Even milk aside because she may not get NEW customers next year (and is already down one customer in that I doubt the doelings' owners will be back to buy more), the simple fact that I doubt the lady raises her kids on proper prevention means more positive animals will be in the market in the long run.

IMO, I would not sell back to the person propogating the disease in the first place. Also, if I KNEW the milk the kids were getting WAS positive, it's a pretty slim chance that they'll come back negative later. I'd probably just butcher asap then spend the money retesting.