Sick kid-advice sought

[Jcran]

Nov 30th boer doeling...tonight while feeding noticed her humping up, tucking her butt under her when ever she stopped moving. She ran to get away but not as exuberant. Caught up and took temp...103. Didn't see loose poos but thermometer seemed like loose poos on it and possible scour spot on back leg. Treated with 5 cc cd antitoxin, 5 cc oral pen and 5 cc subq pen as per the entero protocol on Jack/Anita Mauldin website. She ran to mom and nursed after. I DID bring in a goat protein block yesterday and she may have been nibbling on that. Days here cold, nights COLD in the mid 20s. Not sure if its entero or pneumonia. Anything else I should be giving her? I've got naxcel in the freezer in 1cc syringe doses. This kid weighs almost 30 lbs already. We have not started cocci prevention as we wanted to start all the kids together and our last babies will be 21 days on Dec 26 so she'll get first 3-day round at age 26 days instead of 21 days.

[FrogTacos]

Is she displaying any neural symptoms? Keeping head turned to one side, perhaps a slight palsy, any sort of foaming at the mouth or constant tongue flapping?

[Alice In TX/MO]

1. Throw out the protein block.

2. Start her on coccidia treatment.

3. Give her a small dose of baking soda.

[copperpennykids]

Also, keep an eye on that temperature. Penicillin generally doesn't touch internal infections (we reserve it for open wounds, it is great for that).

If her temp stays up, you will need either Naxcel/Excenel (vet Rx) or at least LA 200 (Biomyicin is LA 200, just with an anti-sting factor).

Banamine is always good - if entero, it helps soothe the gut. If infection, it helps bring the temp down and helps with pain.

Dose with the baking soda every 4 hours.

Please update!

[susanne]

she is too young for entero or coccidiosis if she is just three weeks old and dam raised.
if she licked the protein block, she might has tummy ache if she was not used to it. low temps in your area could be a starter for pneumonia. i would certainly watch for that.
103 is nothing to be concerned but everything over 104 would not be so good.
if she would be on my place she would get bo-se and vit b complex. then on close watch.
if the protein block is in your regular management, then no reason to take it away. but check if they changed the recipe.

[Backfourty,MI.]

I'd give her a little baking soda a day for a couple days, take the protein block away if that's something new to her & just keep a good eye on her. I also don't think 103 is too high but if it goes ony higher I'd start treating for Phneumonia.
I would think 3 more days to start all the coccidiosis on the same day would be fine. I bet it's the protein block that has her tummy a little messed up.

Keep a close eye on her & let us know how she's doing.

[Jcran]

The protein blocks are always in their pens, but she just started chomping on it, and the old one was pretty small; the new one is full sized and all the kids are interested in it (right at that age of starting to eat stuff). She is still a bit hunched tonight but was out with the rest of the gang for curiosity when I walked friends out to their car just a couple minutes ago. She doesn't look worse, and maybe a tad better. I WILL give excenel tomorrow a.m. and I do have banamine if needed. My biggest worry is pneumonia I think, simply because of the low 20s temps at night and the warmer days. I'll go out in a bit and give baking soda and kaolin pectin. I do know that the main reason I have a sick goat is because the vets took today through Monday off...goats just WAIT for the emergency call out. Is that because they are drama queens?

[Laverne]

I want to second that 103 is not of a concern. But watch since weakening conditions can lead to pneumonia. I also think she needs Coccidiosis treatment and worm also with Cydectin. Once a kid sucks on the teat it becomes contaminated with Cocci. I actually start prevention at 15 days old, since they are with adults and I could tell they needed it. They started crying around more, unsettled, the time of year that would multiply coccidiosis fast.

[Jcran]

kid MUCH improved today and we will continue the entero protocol BUT I'm adding naxcel into the regimen just to be safe...she is a really nice doeling out of one of our best does so I want to be sure to she gets better!

[Neecie]

I do cocci treatment (Corid 5 day round) when the OLDEST are 21 days old. That way if any are born after that day, they get their first treatment on the next round at a maximum of 21 days old. Giving it to them before 21 days doesn't hurt and making sure they have it helps keep problems like this at a minimum.

[motdaugrnds]

It sounds like a simple tummy ache to me...a young doeling getting her first "eager" taste at that mineral block.

I would dose her with Baking Soda, give her a big glob of Probios Paste and watch her closely.

[Backfourty,MI.]

Glad to hear your little girl is doing better. Probly just the protein block & too much of it but I would keep an eye on her for Phneumonia. I don't think it's the cold temps that cause Phneumonia but a weakened immune system is most likely what starts it.

[HappyFarmer]

If your nights are that cold and have been for a while, I highly doubt it's cocci, it's virtually nonexistent in the environment here this time of year once the ground gets a crust on it from the cold.

If it's a hard protein block she didn't get too much of it, it's too hard, if it's the softer, crumbly one maybe.

I'd lean towards the start of something else or pneumonia, yet her temp of 103 is nothing to worry about. I'd keep an eye on her.

HF

[Laverne]

Since adult goats have coccidiosis in their system all the time, even if it is frozen outside a mother goat can lay in the barn and if her teat touches one of her fresh turds it is contaminated with coccidiosis.

[HappyFarmer]

The oocysts cannot multiply when the environment is 20 degrees and frozen. If their ground has been frozen for any length of time, which is probable, cocci symptoms would not appear suddenly as the cycle has stopped/slowed, though as in any animal some are present constantly inside the gut. Sure it is possible that some may survive on a warm teat, but the environment is not one where they can multiply and overcome the system of the goat adult or kid in such a short time frame as described.

HF

[Laverne]

Coccidiosis can multiply, survive in the barn or shed, under a a warm doe laying on possibly freshly soiled bedding, all night long. This is where the teat can get contaminated regularly. Outside temps won't matter under those conditions. Coccidiosis symptoms can manifest by 2 weeks old or less depending on species (Goat Medicine). The norm of 20 day prevention meds normally works well though.

I'm glad it looks like the doeling will be fine.

[HappyFarmer]

Goat Medicine, page 313, (cocci) Parasite Factors:

“Oocystss are quite resistant to environmental degradation, and are even more resistant when sporulation occurs. Overwintering of sporocists is not uncommon, and many disinfectants, including 5% formalin, will not destroy them. Sporalation depends on a combination of oxygen availability, temperature and moisture conditions. In general, with adequate moisture and oxygen, sporulation of oocysts occurs optimally within 2-5 days at temperatures between 75 and 90* F and readily at temperatures down to 53.6*F. Synchronosous sporulation can occur among oocysts accumulating in a contaminated environment when optimal conditions prevail. This means that susceptible goats may be challenged by massive numbers of infective sporocysts under appropriate conditions of warmth and humidity.”

http://books.google.com/books?id=lY-...actors&f=false


I have to respectfully disagree, in those temperatures (20*) it is neither warm nor moist enough for the dangerous levels of multiplication of spores (survival yes, but not multiply), 2 of the 3 factors needed for the optimal 2-5 days sporalation period . The section references warmth, moisture, and oxygen as being needed many times throughout the section. The OP's environmental description does not allow for the 3 factors. I know my goats do not lay around in the same place for 8 hours, but we are also not in an extremely confined management situation that would allow that.

Inside a warm barn where the bedding doesn't freeze is an entirely different situation, a man-made situation, where oocysts can multiply to dangerous levels in ~3 days. Taking these factors into consideration we manage accordingly with no cocci related issues in our winter pastures nor in our heated (50*) barn when cleaned & air dried a minimum of every 3 days (not the case in OP's situation). We believe management plays an important role – eliminate the factor(s) for multiplication and overload and you eliminate the issue of sickness, (and the potential for sulfa med resistance build up). This is why we do what we do and it works. Let it be noted we do however use treatment rather than prevention when the situation calls for it (warm, wet weather/environment).

I appreciate your thoughts, and we will probably continue to disagree, but that's okay, we all must manage in a manner that best suits us.
HF

[Backfourty,MI.]

Joan, How's your little doe? Hope shes back to normals & everythings good at your farm!

[Jcran]

She perked right back up; I do think it was a bad belly ache and the entero protocol is cheap insurance in case it is/was. She is back to her chunky monkey leaping self. The weather has gone from COLD and DRY to warm and WET. Drizzly icky rain. Sooooo....I sold my trailer and think I'll use the money to get in a big load of crush rock so the goats can stay up and out of the muck near the gate...cocci weather is here. We are using GARLIC BARRIER this year as our cocci prevention protocol. We'll let all y'all know how it goes!