Hi: I'm new with goat trouble!!

[crittercrazy]

Hi: Ive never posted on a forum before but desparate means means desparate measures!!! I have owned two pygmy does for three years and a nigerian wehter for two years very happily and with no health problems. Stupid me decided to buy a kid buck and doeling to enter the breeding world. Both are from a breeder of nigerians. I got the buck at five weeks of age. The breeder said it was fine and he was ready to go on hay and grain.(I never relized he was too young and should have bottle fed him). The doeling was eight weeks old. I actually purchased the buck a month before the doe and went back to get the doeling. I kept the buck inside a rubber matted horse stall with a fenced run next to my older three goats. The doeling was placed inside the little bucks matted stall inside a dog kennel (5x5). So she was never in contact with my goats or outside the whole time I had her.

To make a long story short. After two months of owning the doeling she broke out in an abcess. Called the vet. Vet came and inspected the whole little herd. Only the doeling had this lump. It was cultured and cameback positive for cl.I contacted the breeder and she says no goat in her herd has
any signs and also then told me she had a vet out to inspect her herd and none had signs. She said the blood test was too expensive to run.

I ended up putting the doeling down(VERY sad!!!) and vaccinated the rest with case-bac. The 5 mo. old buck is coughing and has been since I got him at 5 weeks.

Here are my questions:

1. I had a raccoon last spring in my hay for a week. The goats were fed this hay. Could the doeling have gotten cl from this?

2. The little buck coughs sometimes(mostly when eating--sounds wet and congested like)-he has no fever, the vet listened to his lungs etc. with clean bill. Im so worried he has internal cl but isnt five weeks too young for this to develope internally?

3. If every one stays lump free how long before I can assume I dodged that bullet?

4. Crazy me still imagines/dreams of maybe breeding the pygmy does to the little buck this fall. Am I asking for trouble?

Long story, I know. Thanks!

[crittercrazy]

Anybody?

[dragonjaze]

It can be kinda quiet on this forum on Sundays. Give it a little time. Lots of knowledgeable people on here, I'm not one of them, sorry.

[Alice In TX/MO]

No idea about raccoons and CL.

[Backfourty,MI.]

I'm so sorry you had to have your little doeling put down. I'm not an expert on CL, only know what I've read & have no 1st hands experience with it-Thank Goodness but I don't think they could get CL from raccons soiling or leaving germs on the hay.

I also don't think the little buckling would show signs of CL at 5 weeks of age but again I'm not sure of that.

Alot of us have had goats recently with a little runny nose. We are thinking allergies & the changes in weather, etc.
As long as he's eating good, no temp or runny poo I would just keep a real close eye on him. I would never wean any kid at 5 weeks of age, but all you can do now is make sure he has the right nutrition for his little body as it's still growing. He would be about 3 months now right?

Did you start him on any coccidosis prevention after bringing him home? If not you may want to start that now.
Also do you worm or have fecals done for anyof your goats & if so what wormers do you use?


Don't panic yet about your other goats. If the doelings abcess never burst & none of the fluids got on any soil where your goats go then you might not have any reason to be alarmed.
I'm not sure how long you need to wait but I think I'd definately have my other goats tested for CL just to be on the safe side & relieve your mind.


Things may not be as grim as they seem right now.
After having your other goats tested & everything comes back normal then there's no reason the little buckling won't be ready to breed your does' in a few more months.

[HappyFarmer]

I have no experience with the vaccine. It may offer some protection to your other goats, not sure if they are already infected. Be aware any goat given the vaccine will show up positive on a blood test. Also, blood tests are cheap, cheap, cheap, if drawn yourself. Fairly expensive if vet-drawn, though not 100% accurate. Only the exudus from the abcess will be 100% accurate. Your vet DID test the pus from the abcess, correct?

Never assume you are "free". There really isn't such thing, there is always the potential of extracting it from visitors, other goats, shows, the vet, etc etc etc. You are only "free" at the time of testing. CLA (CL) can be tested by blood, but false negatives/false postives are common. The only way to know if you are positive is by testing the pus on the abcess. CLA can remain dormant....

Did the abcess on the doeling burst?? Did the vet have you segregate her & take precautions so the draining abcess fluids did not contaminate anything? That is an important question.

My research tells me under 6 months is too young to develop a CLA Abcess, but clearly this is not the case for you.....I would assume the buck is positive, particulary since the breeder is not aware she has CLA. Lets face it, a 2 month old kid is hardly a world traveler, and chances are your goats would have developed an abcess or 2 by now if it was pre-existing on your farm.

Quarantine your herd to a small area, in an attempt to keep the main pastures clean (assuming no abcesses burst on the pasture, forward thinking here). Vaccinate everyone, and re-booster. Keep the buckling separate, and assume he is positive. Disinfect everywhere the doeling has been with a vet strength disinfectant, liken Nolvasen (sp?). CLA can live for a long time on objects like feeders, poles etc.

Remember CLA spread from a burst abcess & the fluids. Keep an eye on your herd and as soon as an abcess shows, act immediately, do not wait for it to burst. Make sure any kids born are pulled at birth before mom even touches them, segregate them in a "clean" area, and vaccinate. Wear gloves & burn them when done.

I don't think the raccoon transmitted the CLA. Racoons do carry diseases, but it is unlikely the raccon brought in CLA.

At 5 weeks the buckling did not have CLA in his lungs, though that does NOT mean he does not have CLA. It just means he was not coughing because of CLA. Worm him for lungworm & see if it helps.

I'm sorry you are going through this, and glad you caught it early & acted.

HF

[Creamers]

CL testing only tells you if the goat currently has an abscess, and testing runs $7 ea, I believe, through WADDL. . . not bad for a small herd.

The Raccoon didn't bring the CL in. . . I would feel confident of that. . .

The CL likely came from her herd and if another goat was sold off -
it likely - from the stress - would present with an abscess. . .

It is after kidding and after being moved or sick they usually
end up with an abscess, if they have CL.

If she wasn't around the other goats and a vet handled the abscess,
hopefully no one else was exposed.

It would be worth while to test everyone - just in case - but it isn't
going to tell you 100% or nearly so.

If everyone stayed lump free forever on your farm, you still can't be
sure. . . normally it doesn't present until they are / or if they are sold.
But really. . .no one can be sure, in that case, and all you can do is test and
check them often.

The buck may have all sorts of things going on having been weaned 11 weeks before
he should have been. Shame on ANYONE who bred him and sold him to you that young - that is so sad. Same with the doeling. . .FAR too young.

He may have lung worms - who do his eye lids look?
Had he been on any cocci prevention?

[PennyJ]

The droppings of raccoons can contain raccoon roundworm (Baylisascaris procyonis & B. columnaris). This parasitic worm can and does infect humans. The egg spores in the raccoon droppings are light and can become airborne, and people can breathe them in and become infected. Infection of humans can lead to larval parasite migration to the central nervous system. These egg spores can live for years as dry pods. This is a very dangerous to humans, especially children.

Raccoons also carry Giardia lamblia, a protozoan causing diarrhea associated with ingesting food or water contaminated by raccoon excrement. A few other: Trypanosoma cruzi is associated with raccoon excrement & so are Rickettsia rickettsii, Leptospirosis, and Salmonella.....yucky stuff for sure!

They are also host to a number of parasites, such as lice and fleas.

[HappyFarmer]

Great info Penny. I knew there was diseases, just didn't know what.

So, what are your thoughts on the raccoon bringing in the CLA?

Also, is that the same Lepto goats can have? A few of the breeders I bought my original goats from vaccinated for that.

HF

[Minelson]

Originally Posted by PennyJ

The droppings of raccoons can contain raccoon roundworm (Baylisascaris procyonis & B. columnaris). This parasitic worm can and does infect humans. The egg spores in the raccoon droppings are light and can become airborne, and people can breathe them in and become infected. Infection of humans can lead to larval parasite migration to the central nervous system. These egg spores can live for years as dry pods. This is a very dangerous to humans, especially children.

Raccoons also carry Giardia lamblia, a protozoan causing diarrhea associated with ingesting food or water contaminated by raccoon excrement. A few other: Trypanosoma cruzi is associated with raccoon excrement & so are Rickettsia rickettsii, Leptospirosis, and Salmonella.....yucky stuff for sure!

They are also host to a number of parasites, such as lice and fleas.

Eee-Gads!!!! Thankfully we don't have a problem here with them. Although I see a lot dead on the road.

[PennyJ]

Originally Posted by HappyFarmer

Great info Penny. I knew there was diseases, just didn't know what.

So, what are your thoughts on the raccoon bringing in the CLA?

Also, is that the same Lepto goats can have? A few of the breeders I bought my original goats from vaccinated for that.

HF

You're welcome. Actually, many animals can carry this stuff, not just the raccoon.

Yes, this is the same lepto that goats can get. As for the CLA, I'm just going on all of the reading that I've done about "Corynebacterium pseudotuberculosis", which is the bacteria that causes CL. This bacteria is found almost everywhere in nature/outdoors. It can live in the soil, hay, and infected manure for up to 8 months or more, depending on conditions. So with that said, it is a possibility that the raccoon could have carried it.

Hope this helps

[CarolT]

Wild animals carry a lot of diseases communicable to us and our pets and livestock, but the hugest risk of communicable problems are our pets. The list of diseases they can give us is 10 times or more longer than any wild animal... Just an FYI...

[where I want to]

From looking at your post, I think I counted up the doeling as 4 months old (2 months when you bought her and 2 months later the ascess burst.) That is pretty early for CL abscess to develop. It is a pretty slow moving diseases far as I know.
No vet can "look" at a goat and say they don't carry CL- all he can say they don't have any abscesses right at that moment and he can only say that if he goes over each of them thoroughly.
Since you vaccinated the others, they may show up as having a low titer just due to the vaccination without actually having CL. Some goats carry the disease without having an abscess show up- some have only one once.
If you do the blood test and it comes back absolutely negative, you stand a good chance of truly being negative. If it comes back negative because the titer is too low to be sure, you will just have to wait and see.
I can't think a racoon can spread goat CL- at least I have never heard of it.
Goat tend to develop external abscesses due to CL- sheep frequently develop internal ones. So, beside your goats showing the disease really early, your buck would also be unusual for having an internal abscess. Although anything is possible, it seems pretty unlikely to me.
Did your vet send off the culture to have a vet school certify the exact bacteria? When I had a goat culture for CL (at one year) my vet sent the culture to UC Davis to have it confirmed.

[mpete]

When you say she tested positive... what was the numbers? A 1:8 is the lowest number you can get and is considered a negative result. A 1:16 means there is a chance there was an exposure. The higher the number the worse news.
I would retest.

[crittercrazy]

Thanks for all your information. Yes the vet did a culture on the puss from the doelings abcess(Idexx labs i believe). The vet assured me it was not a false positive result since the actual bacteria was identified. I CANNOT say i'm very pleased with how he handled it though. I was told to wait on the abcess until it "matured" so it did burst on its own about a month ago. When the vet came out he was very casual about it. In fact it took weeks for him to contact a vet who knew how to handle this. The vets around here are mostly horse vets. The doeling was always kept separate in a matted stall however the buck shared a fence line with her. I always handled her with gloves and disinfected everything with bleach and lisol. I check all the goats every day and no lumps so far. I was planning on keeping the doeling and just dealing with it but she kept getting more lumps and I then became very worried the others would get it. Plus draining the abcesses were painful and stressful for her.

I vaccinated the remainders with case -bac on the vets recommendation about a week ago. The doeling was put down last friday.
the buck is now five months old and eats great and seems very lively. I did worm him at 2 mos. of age with ivermectin(3x his weight). He usually only coughs when he is eating or if his collar presses on his neck. It is a nasty sounding cough. The vet was again no help here.

I am definetly leaning towards the cl came from the breeder but didnt want to acuse her of something if it came from somewhere else. Since she was in isolation from my original goats on a matted floor the entire time I could only think of that raccoon episode. The breeder did imply she had cl on her property years ago but that she then tested her herd and they all came back negative. She also told me that one other goat she sold this spring developed an abcess for the new owner but it was tested cl negative. I dont really blame her. I dont think she knew. But I am so upset with this dealing with all this heartache!!

Thanks alot for all the information! Seems there alot of vets in my area that no nothing about CL ing goats and dont bother to find out!

[mpete]

so sorry you are going through this. I too had purchased a goat who ended up positive through the pus culture. I sent him back and got my money back. He never came in contact with my herd either... Awesome job at quarentine!
I would do a fecal on your buckling. Whenever you test for cl from now on you will come up positive, but the titer will be low. Have you had the buckling tested yet? If it is an active infection, the titer will be high (1:72 etc... in increments of 8).
CL can also be spread by flies. Say a neighbor has a goat who pops an cl abcess. A fly eats the pus, then lands on your animal who, say, has a scratch from the tree out back and the fly will then transmit the cl to your goat by biting the damaged skin. CL can also be inhaled as before mentioned.
Are you sure you are not dealing with a pnuemonia with your buckling? Have you taken his temp? Have you tried benedryl to see if it is just alergies?

[HappyFarmer]

I understand that many vets consider CLA no big deal, especially if they see a lot of it in their practice. I disagree with this thought wholeheartedly.

Goat vets sometimes are hard to come by. If I were you I would verify his statements & work and not just take his word for the best way to handle problems from this point forward. IMO he handled that very poorly.

You cannot test for CLA through a fecal. A fecal would be beneficial to determine his wormload, though it won't pick up lungworms. You just need to treat for them, then repeat in 10 days. It sounds like his coughing is somewhat normal, if it's only when he eats or has his collar pulled. We don't see that much coughing though I"ve hears others have. Again I would worm him regardless, targeting lungworm.

I would up the biosecurity as I stated before and stay on top of it, and manage as though everyone was positive. Again, it is my understanding incubation is 6 months or so, but your doeling was less than that so.....

I'm certain her area is heavily contaminated, being there was more than 1 abcess. I'm a advocate of bleach, but in this case I would use it in addition to a product to target these types of bacteria (Is Lisol an antibacterial?).

At this point I think you are doing the right thing by vaccinating and cleaning her area. Now monitoring, disinfecting, & segretation will be your friend, and may just save your other goats.

HF

[Pony]

I seriously doubt the raccoon being in the hay caused your doeling to pick up CL.

If I was a betting woman, I'd say it's the breeder. I'd bet the farm on it.

As noted, CL manifests under stressful conditions.

So sorry you had to put down your doeling, but I think you did the right thing. Also, good on you for making sure you had the doe isolated. As long as the abscess didn't burst and infect your land, I would say that you're clear for CL on the rest of the animals - but I'd still bleach the daylights out of the area where the infected animal was living.

Don't give up hope! You're conscientious, and you will do well!

[PennyJ]

I do agree with everyone when it's stated that the CLA probably came from the breeder. But I do have to question where CLA gets its start, especially since it gets its start in nature/found in nature. Outside of a goat having it, where did the very first goat pick it up?

[HappyFarmer]

Mutations maybe, a real mind boggling question is where did any of the diseases present in today's world come from? Pick one, any one.



Quote: do agree with everyone when it's stated that the CLA probably came from the breeder. But I do have to question where CLA gets its start, especially since it gets its start in nature/found in nature. Outside of a goat having it, where did the very first goat pick it up? UnQuote