keep bottle feeding past 4 months ?

[bwanaswan]

Have a four month old Tog that is failing to thrive. No worm issues, eats fine, takes a bottle fine, no other signs of stress (less this hot weather).

She only weighs 16lbs compared to her litter mate that is at almost 30lbs.

I have weined the one but I almost feel I should increase the milk on the little runt.

What to do?

What would Alice do?

[Alice In TX/MO]

Oh dear.

16 pounds? Cull.

I'm sorry.

[freedomfrom4]

Cocci can stunt them like that and they can't support themselves nutrtionally.

[mygoat]

16lbs or 30lbs, either way that's pretty small for being 4 months, I think. I just weighed my boys that are about 4.5 months, and they are about 70-75lbs. I could barely pick up my big boy to weigh him. The only one that's a bit smaller is my boer buckling that I bought, he's around 60lbs and is a few weeks younger than the rest - he was weaned around 8 weeks old, however, as he was purchased as a dam raised baby.

Do you use Cocci prevention? When and what were they wormed with? Have fecals been done? I raised on cocci prevention with 40% dimethox in the milk every 3 weeks until they hit 50lbs. I wormed every 3 weeks with Cydectin as well.

How much and how often have you been feeding them? I feed a LOT of milk to get great growth. Currently my boys are getting about a quart per day, 1x per day, but I'm slowly weaning them.

Before, I used to feed them a quart per feeding, 2x per day. Before that, I fed them about 24 oz per feeding, 3x per day. When I start kids on milk, I fill a bottle for each and let them take as much as they want per feeding until I max out the amount of milk I have available. Usually for young kids this is no more than 24 oz 3x a day for a while, until I sell some and then I try to get everybody to 32oz.

I also grain feed a little - 1 to 1.5 cups per day per kid (50% of my 'grain' mix is actually alfalfa pellets, however). Free choice alfalfa hay, quality minerals with Ammonium chloride mixed in, baking soda, and water of course

[Pony]

Oooh. <wince> That's pretty little.

If you really want to hang on to that one, I'd suggest trying the following:

Continue bottle-feeding.

Check the worm load. After worming, add a shot of Calf Pro with coccidiastat to each bottle.

Grain (COB is good)

And of course, free choice alfalfa, hay, minerals, baking soda.

All the best, whatever you choose to do.

[mygoat]

At the very least, I too would continue to bottle feed. If it were me - I'd cull and start again fresh next year.

[Creamers]

OH MY!
16 LBS? Are you sure on that weight ?

She almost has to have had serious uncontrolled cocci. What type
of prevention have you used with her?

It is possibly too late - but maybe not.

No question she needs, if you do not put her down,
a good cocci treatment - get a fecal - started and stick with
the prevention after treatment every 21 days - - -

16 lbs is what my 2 week old kids weigh. . . by 4 month old Nubians
and Saanens usually are 60lbs.

The 30 lbs kid need cocci treatment and more milk, possibly, too.

Any photos possible?

I give 60 oz a day until 20 weeks, at least - if not growing super well - until 6 months

[LoneStrChic23]

Oh wow! Both are tiny.....my 4 month old Alpine x Oberhasli doe weighs 67lbs and she was one of tiny triplets at birth.

My first guess would be coccidia. If she hasn't been on prevention every 21 days then I would do a TREATMENT round on BOTH doelings with Sulfadimethoxine to give you a total kill.... I'm using the 12.5% solution in the gallon jug. Dose is 3.2cc per 5lbs given ince daily for 5 days in a row, no skipping days.

After you've got a total kill you can use the Calfpro daily as prevention, just keep doing the above cocci treatment every 21 days, or you use something like Corid every 21 days.

If they were mine I'd also deworm with Quest horse gel, dose is 1cc per 100lbs.

How much milk are they getting per day? Is it milk or milk replacer?

I have a 4 month old, 4th generation mini alpibe who is 27lbs & eats at least 60oz of milk per day, plus I let her eat her fill of grain, along with unlimited alfalfa pellets & grass hay...

Are you certain of her breed? Is there any way she could be crossed with a Nigerian?

[motdaugrnds]

LSC I've never heard of using Sulfadimethoxine or Calfpro (or Quest horse gel) on goats of any age. I'm thinking you must have first-hand experience with this or you would not have suggested it. Can you let us know what that experience was?

[bwanaswan]

Thanks to all for the advice. Both doelings have been through the 21 day corid treatment, have been wormed, had the fecals done in past week, and are up to date on shots.

The alpine is small but looks healthy and weighed out at 35 lbs this morning.
The tog is at 18 lbs today takes the milk well and (I have started giving her more by 2 ounces each day). With the extreme heat they have been getting electrolites at least once a day and both love that stuff.

Will way my options but there is no way my wife would let me cull them. I worry that an Iowa winter will take care of that but I can keep them around for our grandaughter to enjoy.

Will try to get pics but I have never tried to do it. I use my computer at the hospital and it has all kinds of firewalls.

-Chris

[freedomfrom4]

I would say up the milk up knock the electrolites. They get fluid in milk too and they need the nutrition.

[LoneStrChic23]

Originally Posted by motdaugrnds

LSC I've never heard of using Sulfadimethoxine or Calfpro (or Quest horse gel) on goats of any age. I'm thinking you must have first-hand experience with this or you would not have suggested it. Can you let us know what that experience was?

Yep....Sulfadimethoxine (Di-Methox, Albon...mine is VetOne brand) is a total kill for coccidia unlike Corid which is a preventative and only kills one life stage. The new mini doeling my daughter brought home is TINY, half the size of the mini kids I had born here & almost 5 months old. Have had her almost a month, about to do her second round of Sulfadimethoxine (she never had cocci prevention prior to coming here) and already she's gained 11lbs! I fecal before & after to ensure what I've used works..

Quest gel is moxidectin...the same drug as Cydectin used by many, just a bit easier to buy when you have only a few goats. Every new goat here is dewormed with Quest the day they unload. Now that I have more goats I'm going to spring for a bottle of Cydectin, but according to fecals, the Quest has worked beautifully. New goats I deworm with Quest, repeat in 10 days, then fecal in about 2 months....so far I'm deworming about every 4 months.

I have not used Calfpro, but chatted with Emily about it & am thinking of trying it on a few kids this season to see how I like it. This is a preventative with vitamins added, given daily in the bottle though that doesnt taste nasty like Corid/Di-Methox, which is why I reccomended a total kill product (Sulfadinethoxine) for the first round, then they could go back to prevention products like Corid or Calfpro.

I personally didn't have any luck starting out with a prevention product on the kids I bought, & was having to follow up with Sulfadimethoxine a few days after a Corid round, so now I start all bought kids on Sulfadimethoxine & use a prevention product on later rounds. My doeling born here I used Corid on, no problems.....not sure the difference, unless the stress of moving just made things worse...

[Alice In TX/MO]

Sulfadimethoxine is an extremely commonly used coccidiastat.

Google search of sulfadimethoxine and goats
http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1WZPD_enUS440US440&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Suldadimethoxine#sclient=psy&hl=en&rlz=1C1WZPD_enUS440US440&source=hp&q=Suldadimethoxine+goats&pbx=1&oq=Suldadimethoxine+goats&aq=f&aqi=g-lv1&aql=1&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=609l1977l0l2186l6l6l0l0l0l0l1165l2986l6-1.2l3&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=4314f23e9084643a&biw=1280&bih=685
Quest is *very* often discussed here and on the other goat boards that I read for deworming.

Google search of Quest dewormer and goats
http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1WZPD_enUS440US440&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Suldadimethoxine#pq=suldadimethoxine%20goats&hl=en&sugexp=esqb%2Cratio%3D0%2Cdepth%3D0&cp=20&gs_id=3a&xhr=t&q=quest+dewormer+goats&qe=cXVlc3QgZGV3b3JtZXIgZ29hdHM&qesig=PEdwQwM_6wwHR8autXz3Qw&pkc=AFgZ2tnRtzqWRmGbETRkUXVnQixvCXNdxW7WmM3jyJWPXn_iYVxVLN1TSgTx_vgvHAUdCQLEKQRmZ3kVfLUr_h7SyE8FlxsZ3w&pf=p&sclient=psy&rlz=1C1WZPD_enUS440US440&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=quest+dewormer+goats&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=4314f23e9084643a&biw=1280&bih=685

[Alice In TX/MO]

Bwanasan,
How much milk (real milk) were these kids getting for the last few months?

[motdaugrnds]

I am going to get some of that myself. Little Faith is stil not eating grain, though she is almost as large as the others born 2 months prior to her. (Faith is the little one I had to take away from her dam for awhile and had spoken of with some of you in here.) She is also still nursing. (I caught her laying out in the shade of the house with Bliss, her dam, this afternoon. Bliss was sound asleep with her head over her back and little Faith was snuggled next to her chewing the cud. It was such a neat sight that I wanted a picture; but as soon as I opened the door, Bliss raised her head to watch.)

[bwanaswan]

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

Bwanasan,
How much milk (real milk) were these kids getting for the last few months?

Alice,

No real milk given to date on these two. We had never had an issue with the replacer used in the past and had very good results. That said, I am rethinking my decision and if I should put at least the Tog on whole milk now.
The alpine is weaned and I think has a real chance to make it.

These are our first milk breed goats. The boer kids have always been much easier to raise being that they stay on the dam with little effort for the most part. Prevention on the boers has been easy since I have a schedule.

The learning curve on these potential milkers has been a little steep since we assumed many things and to tell the truth didn't put prevention into play early enough.

Thanks,

Chris

[Alice In TX/MO]

Ah. Well, you know the response that using replacer is going to give you on this board, so I won't say anything else about that, other than it is most likely part of the problem.

The other is the coccidia issue. Lack of prevention leads to scarred intestines which cannot absorb nutrients.

I wonder if she will get big enough to breed?

[LoneStrChic23]

Ok, I'm not angry.....lol I type post on a touch screen phone & somehow, above my last post I added an angry face.... sorry about that.

Anywho, I know some have had good luck with milk replacers..... in my case I've not seen one healthy, growthy, thriving kid on milk replacers, I've only heard about them. When it comes down to it, they are the waste items from milk products (whey, fillers ect.) While milk is a whole, complete food.

If you want to give this little one a chance, I'd definately get her on whole milk. Start slow, but woek her up to a minimum of 60oz a day....My 4 month old mini is taking 65oz a day easily. Get coccidia under control with a treatment medicine, not a prevention med like Corid. Deworm her & hope for the best. Odds are they won't be breedable their first fall, but maybe with strict parasite management you'll be able to breed them as 2 year olds.

Good luck!

[bwanaswan]

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

Ah. Well, you know the response that using replacer is going to give you on this board, so I won't say anything else about that, other than it is most likely part of the problem.

The other is the coccidia issue. Lack of prevention leads to scarred intestines which cannot absorb nutrients.

I wonder if she will get big enough to breed?

It would be easy to say I did the right thing from the begining and avoid the slings and arrows that oft happen. However, it is better for me at least to come clean on my lack of knowledge so that I might get better at this.

Another issue for me at least is I am not the only decision maker in reguards to prevention or lack there of. All the good intentions flow out the window when the results prove out otherwise. As so happens too often with any venture like raising goats or even other types of goats is a lack of cold hard facts and rules. It takes a while for all the info to process and sometimes the advice is, while good intended not correct and it takes a while to sort through who to trust. Not only that but what works for one herd may not work for yours.

Anyway, I am most sorry for the goats that suffer because I have not been smart enough or fast enough to deal with the problems that crop up.
I have no idea if that little one will ever get big enough to breed (I'm guessing not) and I am dealing with someone who is kicking themselves very hard for not letting me put them on cocci prevention.

Thank you very much Alice for your solid advice in this and many other issues. You and others like you make this site a wonderful tool to learn and you have saved many lives through your expertise.

A note on milk replacers: For a good part of the population that do not follow blogs like this their knowledge of what to feed or medicate their goats with leaves them standing and staring at the products in farm supply stores. We are at the mercy of what the different labels promise and by all accounts they should prove out. So for many what starts out as hope turns to desperation when things go awry and misinformation costs you and your goats or livestock both in health and money.

Sometimes I look out at my goats and think I have somewhat of a handle on things and their overall health is pretty good and then I think oh boy I sure hope they will survive with me as their caretaker. I am humbled more and more with each passing day.

-Chris

[LoneStrChic23]

Originally Posted by bwanaswan

It would be easy to say I did the right thing from the begining and avoid the slings and arrows that oft happen. However, it is better for me at least to come clean on my lack of knowledge so that I might get better at this.

Another issue for me at least is I am not the only decision maker in reguards to prevention or lack there of. All the good intentions flow out the window when the results prove out otherwise. As so happens too often with any venture like raising goats or even other types of goats is a lack of cold hard facts and rules. It takes a while for all the info to process and sometimes the advice is, while good intended not correct and it takes a while to sort through who to trust. Not only that but what works for one herd may not work for yours.

Anyway, I am most sorry for the goats that suffer because I have not been smart enough or fast enough to deal with the problems that crop up.
I have no idea if that little one will ever get big enough to breed (I'm guessing not) and I am dealing with someone who is kicking themselves very hard for not letting me put them on cocci prevention.

Thank you very much Alice for your solid advice in this and many other issues. You and others like you make this site a wonderful tool to learn and you have saved many lives through your expertise.

A note on milk replacers: For a good part of the population that do not follow blogs like this their knowledge of what to feed or medicate their goats with leaves them standing and staring at the products in farm supply stores. We are at the mercy of what the different labels promise and by all accounts they should prove out. So for many what starts out as hope turns to desperation when things go awry and misinformation costs you and your goats or livestock both in health and money.

Sometimes I look out at my goats and think I have somewhat of a handle on things and their overall health is pretty good and then I think oh boy I sure hope they will survive with me as their caretaker. I am humbled more and more with each passing day.

-Chris

Don't beat yourself up over this! I bet you'd be hard pressed to find a single person on this forum who wishes they could have known more or done things differently!

I personally believe goats have the biggest learning curve of any animal..... The information I read in a slew of goat books is horribly inaccurate, goat care info I've recieved from two vets is horribly wrong. My vet raises boers & has a fair amount of losses each year that he considers "normal" and many of his practices I wouldn't dare use in my herd. Most info out there is conflicting, so then your stuck trying to sort the fluff from the useable, needed info.....It's frustrating & can be overwhelming to get it all in order...

I'm thankful for this board, as well as DGI where I learned proper nutrition, deworming, coccidia prevention & mineral needs. Even with these resources, I've still done a few things I sorely wish I could go back and change.

Hang in there, you'll get through this and your next year in goats will be even better.


ETA- once again, sorry for the angry face! I don't know how they end up at the top of my post, but I cant get rid of it & I'm not mad