? About CAE

[Blue Run Farm]

Okay, this may be a stupid question but here goes. As you may know, we had a new doe who turned out to be CAE positive. We culled her about 2 weeks ago. So now we have her two doelings, also positive since they were nursing her, in a pen by themselves. Would it be a bad idea to let them in with the other doe and her two kids? So far, I have kept everyone strictly isolated. I know CAE is generally passed in the milk to kids, so now that fear is gone; since the CAE positive milk is gone with the doe that was culled I don't need to worry about her letting my other doe's kids nurse on her. But what if these doelings somehow managed to get my CAE negative doe to let them nurse on her? Could they pass it to her? Or pass it to her babies if they are playing together?

I really want to make sure to keep my tiny herd CAE free! These doelings will be culled when they are big enough, much as it pains me because they are both really pretty. But I don't think I'll have time for bottle raising kids next year, which would be my only way to get any negative doelings from them. Though I am SO tempted to try at least with the one doeling that I would absolutely love to save a doeling from. Much as I love my Snickers, she is a mixed breed with a slightly saggy udder and these two are all Alpine so I'd love to have a milker from one of them. But I have to work at the office 3 days a week, so I don't see how I could bottle feed on those days.

These girls are so lonely and I'd love to at least put them in with my other kids at night when I pull Snickers out to milk in the morning. But I am afraid to take any chances. Also, once they are gone, do I need to bleach the water tubs and whatnot? I know I have heard that CAE does not live on the property, I am just paranoid and don't know how "safe" is safe, ya know? So, what would you all do, continue keeping them strictly isolated or let them in with the rest now that their mom is gone? Thanks in advance!

[Alice In TX/MO]

I would dispose of them as soon as possible. I would not put them with the other goats.

Yes, I would bleach.

I'm cautious, and I'm sure there will be *someone* who thinks I'm over zealous about CAE.

Just telling you what I'd do.

[susanne]

why did you only cull the doe but not her kids that are most likely positive too?
no, i would not put them in with the others but butcher them

[Blue Run Farm]

Suzanne, the plan is to butcher them too. Right now they are only about 50 pounds each, plus our freezer is overflowing from their mom. So I can't butcher them yet, unless I want to throw the meat away. I was figuring on doing them this fall, when they are bigger and I have more room in the freezer.

Thanks Alice and Suzanne, I guess I am not being overly paranoid. I will continue to keep them strictly isolated until the time comes to put them in the freezer. Then I will bleach all of the buckets they've used and their shelter before I put anyone back in that area again.

[mekasmom]

If your plan is to keep a CAE free herd, and that really concerns you, then the only thing you can do is keep them completely separate until you cull them. If you intermingle them, you will possibly spread the virus to others.I wouldn't be worried about butchering them asap, but they will need to be kept completely separate, and you won't want to let the other goats in their pen on around the quarantine area at all until all chances of spread are gone. It just depends on your personal comfort level. That said, you do not have to worried about the virus ever hurting your family's health. Few viruses are actually zoonotic, and CAE is not one of them.

You can certainly take the time to look up scientific studies on line to see how long the virus is actually viable, so you will know how long that area is unsafe after the kids are put in the freezer. I'll even take the time to look for information on that, and find a link if I can find one.

[mekasmom]

I cannot seem to quickly locate a study about the viability of CAE virus outside the body of the host. But several different medical sites and one specific study all say that lentiviruses can only live on a surface from a few hours to a couple of days. Since CAE is a lentivirus just like HIV, Feline Leukemia, and the sheep disease MVV.

http://www.vcu.edu/oehs/chemical/bio...ralvectors.pdf

I wouldn't be concerned about the quarantine pen being infected after the kids are out of it for a couple of weeks at most. And that's especially if the weather were dry and sunny. If it is wet, I would wait at least a couple of weeks to reuse the pen after the kids have been moved into the freezer.

But don't be too awfully worried about this. The main issue with CAE is if you want to show or sell a lot of livestock. Goats with the virus are safe for humans to be around, but it does lower their productivity and lifespan.

[Heritagefarm]

It is almost impossible to transfer CAE through herd members. It is basically traferable only through blood, colstrum, etc.

[CaliannG]

Remember that CAE can be spread through mucus, also. So the doelings should be out of sneezing distance from the rest of the goats.

Solution: Have a great, big BBQ and invite all of your friends and family, church-goers, and whomever else you can think of. Give a purpose to it, like a porch-building party or a barn painting party, or whatever else you can think of (labor for the cost of food) and then cook a LOT of Mom for your working guests.

You will get some big chores done, empty your freezer some, and THEN you will have room to put the doelings.

[Heritagefarm]

Originally Posted by CaliannG

Remember that CAE can be spread through mucus, also.

Source? Also the mucus would have to enter the other goat's body, as well.

[susanne]

Originally Posted by CaliannG

Remember that CAE can be spread through mucus, also. So the doelings should be out of sneezing distance from the rest of the goats.

Solution: Have a great, big BBQ and invite all of your friends and family, church-goers, and whomever else you can think of. Give a purpose to it, like a porch-building party or a barn painting party, or whatever else you can think of (labor for the cost of food) and then cook a LOT of Mom for your working guests.

You will get some big chores done, empty your freezer some, and THEN you will have room to put the doelings.

the virus is not transmitted through mucus. only through white blood cells.
the positive animal would need to have pneumonia in order to infect herd mates through sneezing. blood and milk is the real thread. the virus lives only for a couple of hours outside and as soon as the surface is dry, virus is not longer active.
i still would not keep the positives with the negatives together because of some freaky accidents that can happen.

[prairiedog]

Our CAE postive doe lived with our others and there was no problem. I don't think the likelihood of transmission is very high at all. The colostrum is what is high in it. Even regular milk does not test very much. If you are paranoid about then keep them separate or cull.

[Alice In TX/MO]

How about we don't say paranoid? How about cautious and careful and respectful that we don't know everything there is to know about disease?

[grandmajo]

Originally Posted by Alice In TX/MO

How about we don't say paranoid? How about cautious and careful and respectful that we don't know everything there is to know about disease?

Thank you Alice! Well said!

[LoneStrChic23]

I wouldn't work myself up too much over this....... In the big scheme of things, if I had to deal with a goat problem I'd choose CAE simply because it's the easiest to manage & get of......though its a sad situation.

Since they are already separate & have each other for company I'd just leave things as they are. I'd clean the pen afterwards, as well as the buckets, but that's only because I already clean buckets & give them a good scrub down when I clean the barn anyways.

If you decided to keep one & breed it in order to keep a replacement doe raised on prevention you could always use something like a lambar or automatic feeding system (Christy recently posted pictures of her feeding system that allowed for unlimited milk access) to feed the kids on days you are stuck at work.

CAE sucks, you do need to be cautious when dealing with it & erradicating it from your herd, but its not the end of the world. If the does are truly nice & are something you'd want in your future herd, I'd try to salvage negative kids from the whole mess as long as the does were not showing symptoms or are in pain.

Good luck to you, I'm so sorry your having to deal with this mess....especially with doelings you like

[freedomfrom4]

Offer them to somebody who is already managing with the stipulation that you get a doeling back at weaning. Somebody else is bound to be managing it in their herd already that could take them. Of course it would have to be someone commited to catching kids to prevent the spread.

[LoneStrChic23]

Here's a thread showing Christy's feeding system:

Bringing up baby *pics

She posted another one a while back & I believe she gave info on how to make this yourself.... if I remember correctly it's made out of dog food dishes, some hoses & nipples....

Can't find the older thread though.....Anyways, something like that might allow you to salvage some negative kids from this whole mess if you decide to go that route.

[mygoat]

I agree - be thankfull it's CAE and not something like CL or Johne's, which are harder to manage and eliminate.

CAE CAN be transmitted between adults in a herd. Is it common? NO. But I owned a goat who had it happen to her.

"Dance" came from a herd in WV, originally, tested clean herd for like 10 years. She was a 2-3 year old, had multiple negative tests under her belt. She came to MI to a big name show herd as part of a trade. That show herd kept her until I bought her at age 5. It was before I was very disease savvy and brought her home with no disease testing or isolation - I figured they were a big name herd, they wouldn't screw me over especially since I told them I had a clean herd! I'd just test her when the entire herd became due that fall.

Well, sure enough she tested positive. Turns out the big name herd here in MI is known widely for having a positive herd for CAE. The herd that recieved the trade were in the same boat as I, as are several people I'm aware of in MI. When I called to talk to the herd again after test results, I was told it was 'no big deal' and that they never had symptomatic goats - though I heard later that they bring symptomatic animals to auction, so who knows.

Long story short, I had to butcher two wethers that were my pets that had had her milk - as well as my other dairy doe who was a milk drinker and who had stolen the milk from the pail, from the positive doe. All were beloved goats of mine, I loved them dearly.

But, like you, I didn't want to maintain two dairy herds or undergo the stress of kidding out positive goats. It CAN BE DONE ETHICALLY, however, if you have the gumption to try. Essentially you'd breed the doe, superglue her teats when she's coming due, and be there to catch kids. Raise them on negative milk/colostrum, in strict isolation. Butcher buckling (not really worth the trouble, IMO) even at a few weeks of age just to fill a roasting pan. Raise the doelings out till they are 6 months, then test. I'd even then wait at least 3 more months and test again.

[mekasmom]

Originally Posted by LoneStrChic23

If the does are truly nice & are something you'd want in your future herd, I'd try to salvage negative kids from the whole mess as long as the does were not showing symptoms or are in pain.

Good luck to you, I'm so sorry your having to deal with this mess....especially with doelings you like

I personally would do this too. This really isn't the end of the world. And it's not ever going to hurt you except in a financial aspect. I would keep the girls in a different pen, let them reproduce with an outside billy, then keep their kids, and either put them on another doe or bottle feed them. Your does will not be as productive as a non CAE doe, but.... how important is that to you? The real downside to a CAE+ doe occurs when the udder is hard, and nothing else really bothers them that much. Plus, not all does develop the symptoms in the udder. If they start to get swollen knees or other painful symptoms later on, then you could make the decision to cull them.

As long as they are happy and feel ok, keeping them wouldn't be the end of the world.
But, if you are a worrier about the virus, then you have to keep them separate, and when they do leave that quarantine pen, leave it empty for a numbers of days, especially if it is wet. The study did say that lentiviruses are known to live for up to 2days in a wet environment outside the body.

[ozark_jewels]

Since they have each other(not lonely though they may not be exactly where they want to be), and are already separated, I would keep them separated.
I am totally NOT paranoid about CAE, but I would still reccomend continuing on the course you have set.
While its HIGHLY unlikely they would ever manage to infect your other goats, you are going to butcher them this fall anyway. Its less stressful to keep them separate and not second-guess than it would be to turn them out.
CAE is blood-to-blood or colostrum/milk transmission.
Truly, the only way I see them infecting the others is if they had a nice head-butting contest in which both heads got bloodied and blood was transferred goat to goat. But.....whos to say that could not happen.
Since they already have a separate area, just keep it that way and keep your peace of mind.
I might think differently if you were going to have to build a pen and it would be a great hardship to separate them. But that is a problem already solved.

[CaliannG]

Originally Posted by Heritagefarm

Source? Also the mucus would have to enter the other goat's body, as well.

Source Citation: Dr. Scott Horner, researcher at the International Goat Research Center at Texas A&M Prairie View Campus. He was part of the research team, some decades ago, that was at Washington State when CAE was discovered.

I was discussing contagion pathways with him three weeks ago because I had planned to buy some of the goats they were culling out of his program. That is when he told me that I also needed to have a care about mucus exchange as that was the second most likely contagion pathway for CAE (dam's milk being the first.) He told me that it was especially true of people that showed, and then later were discouraged that their previously neg. tested herd were picking up random positives.... mucus contact was the culprit. However, simply PM me for his e-mail address, or go to the Research center's web presence and use their contact feature, and ask him yourself.